Re: Data source options


Ross Ferris wrote:
> dawn wrote:
> > was not hosted. In the access vs. ownership mix, I'm looking for a
> > customer to access the app and own the data.
>
> Your customer can "own" the data, even though it doesn't reside on
> their system
>
> >
> > It sounds like you have the technology, although not in an open source
> > hosted "free for all to use" way.
>
> ummm, no - at some stage it would be nice to recover some small
> fraction of the R&D$ .... interesting that you wanted to own the
> application you were developing though .... as an OS advocate, surely
> your app would be open source to ??

I often do like open source, but I don't preach it or at least don't
recall doing so. I like to pay nothing for R&D, so I choose open
source, free ware, and free use (e.g. gmail, google) products. I think
there is still a place for software that has a price tag. But, yes,
I'm thinking of open source, but I'm also thinking about free use
software.
>
> > on the web that used this approach. I think that saleforce.com and
> > other asp apps provided hosted data with download features, and they
> > are also for-pay services.
>
> Yes, and by keeping the "main database" closer to the "web application
> server" they can keep performance levels up

understood

> .... but I got the
> impression you didn't want to house the database either

In the not-yet-to-requirements phase of this effort, I want anyone who
would like to use the application to do so, pointing it at a data
source of their choice meeting the whatever api requirements.

> > If the database has an api for required actions that cannot be done
> > through a web-based interface, that would be a problem with this
> > scenario.
>
> It isn't a matter of "can not be done through a web interface", so much
> as it often makes sense to have stuff done at the server.

Absolutely! I'm not looking for anything on the browser side
(javascript) to interact with any persistence API.

> For example,
> you could send a 200Mb file to the client to aggregate summary data,
> but I think everyone would agree that it would be better to just send
> to the 20K of results !

definitely
>
> >
> > is in the details: mapping between 2-valued and 3-valued logic, mapping
> > ordered nested lists, loose compared to strong typing issues, derived
> > data (aka virtual fields), database triggers & constraints, metadata,
> > dates, etc.
>
> Yeah, I know. I've been watching the "maturation" of the XML space. It
> may be worthwhile noting that with Visage we don't limit ourselves to
> just 3 dimensions ... we support >100, and as you know that is more
> complex than anything that is currently mapped in the real world that
> I'm aware of

I've heard you say that before and I'm not exactly certain I know what
you mean. Do you mean that you can nest tables 100 levels deep? That
is mind-boggling. I cannot comprehend the proposition being modeled by
such a construct, but it would be fun to see a good application of even
more than ten nestings.

> >
> >
> > Really? OK, you've got my attention. What XML data sources are you
> > using for data persistence? XML documents in the file system? Any
> > "XML databases"? I'm all ears.
>
> Primarily Sleepycat/Berkley DB XML for the "real" database stuff, with
> a bit of 'pretending' with XML mapping services with SQL Server.
> HOWEVER, I'm waiting to have a 'real play' with the new windows file
> system, which as you probably know is basically a cut down version of
> SQL Server for 'unstructured data', but that looks VERY INTERESTING ...
> though I fear there will be some road blocks to scalablity in much the
> same way that IIS is "hobbled" on WinXP
> >
> > I understand there might be good rationale, but I can hear the dollars
> > getting sucked into that project. Look how many folks out there are
> > working on O-R mapping in light of XML.
>
> We are NOT looking at doing all of this work ourselves! We intend to
> stand on the shoulders of giants, and for us the mapping will be done
> at the middleware layer.

So you are coding as if it were pick, right. That is what I have seen.

> > I've lived it. It is interesting, and I'm absolutely certain it is
> > more fun for he-who-is-not-paying-the-bill
>
> yep! See comment above re R&D$
>
> >
> > It does sound like you have done what I'm looking for other than the
> > free-for-use feature. Since I'm looking for all aspects of the
> > application to be sans-dollars changing hands, I'm guessing that isn't
> > a match.
> >
> And there in lies the rub. Visage ISN'T free - but it is cheap as chips
> for what you get.

I don't doubt that at all.

> Even if you find the "free software components" to
> start building your application, unless you value your time at the same
> rate ($0/hr)

Now you are sounding like my husband, but, yes, that is the rate I'm
charging myself on this effort right now -- you gotta problem with
that?

> Visage also has all sorts of other "neat stuff" that may or may not be
> of interest, depending on WHAT you application has to do. If you are
> looking at being TRUELY international, then multi-lingual support from
> a single code base is just a click away - even multi-byte languages
> like Chinese, yet we still work with static pages that can be cached.

very impressive

> Let me know how the San$ works out .... oh, and don't forget to factor
> in the lost opportunity cost of NOT being able to start developing your
> killer app TODAY :-)

I have a delayed gratification thing going.

And I definitely agree that Visage as well as many other products
offered here are all exceedingly good deals.

cheers! --dawn

> Ross Ferris
> Stamina Software
> Visage - Better by Design
> (Not Free, but cheap as chips)

.

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