Re: Memetic takeover

On Oct 29, 8:48 am, Tim Tyler <seemy...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Alpha wrote:
On Oct 29, 7:32 am, Tim Tyler <seemy...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Alpha wrote:
You say: "We can get insight into this process by observing recent
technological evolution." which bears little or no relation to
autopoietic organisms evolving by natural experiment in the natural
world.
Yes it does.  Memes are inherited material that is not made out of DNA.

Memetic change is part of biological evolution, according to the
standard definition of evolution - which makes no reference to the
medium of inheritance.

As such it shares many properties with DNA evolution: for example,
the concepts of adaptation, genotype, drift, phenotype, gene, parasite,
mutualist, predator, mutation, recombination, neutrality, selection
and gradualism all apply.

That certainly does not constitute "little or no relation".

Incorrect.  Wiki says: "evolution is the process of change in the
inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to
the next. "

Uh huh.  Note that it doesn't specify the medium of inheritance
be DNA.  If you inherit your surname, hairstyle, circumsised
penis and choice of beer from your pop, then then those still
count as "inherited traits".

Memes are not part of biological evolution as you claim  [...]

Yes they are.  Check again with the definition.

Here's how one textbook explains it:

``In short, humans have two unique hereditary systems.
   One is the genetic system that transfers biological
   information from biological parent to offspring
   in the form of genes and chromosomes.  The other
   is the extragenetic system that transfers cultural
   information from speaker to listener, from writer
   to reader, from performer to spectator, and forms
   our cultural heritage.''

  - Evolution, Strickberger, 1996.

Of course, DNA and memes also co-evolve.  E.g.: habitually drink milk
for very long and your genes will adapt via the Baldwin effect.

as memes are not biological organisms [...]

The idea is that memes are like genes.  Genes are not
"biological organisms" either - but they are a means of
inheritance used by them.

That is not to say that memes do not evolve by similar mechnisms
though; just that they are not biologically based as you claim.

Memes are a really just a form of inheritance not based on DNA.
They are as "biological" as anything else in biology.

No they are not <sigh>


The new replicators are dependent on humans *today*.  As I point out,
the memes are busy constructing robots and synthetic intelligence -

Memes do nothing; they are ideas only and ideas do not construct
anything.

So: they are exacly like genes in that respect, then?

No, genes are by def. a biological instantiation that when part of a
process of explication, produce biolgical organisms.


They are merely descriptive "vehicles" to be used by humans
and their artifices (computers etc.) to accomplish goals that humans
designate.

"Vehicles"?  Richard Dawkins would have a fit.

That is a good thing. ;^)


Memes are dead and have no intentionality.

So: they are exacly like genes in that respect, then

Genes are part of an autopoietic organsims, inseparable from such in
biological evolution.
.

Relevant Pages

  • The ghost in your genes
    ... Biology stands on the brink of a shift in the understanding of inheritance. ... At the heart of this new field is a simple but contentious idea – that genes have a 'memory'. ... Marcus Pembrey, a Professor of Clinical Genetics at the Institute of Child Health in London, in collaboration with Swedish researcher Lars Olov Bygren, has found evidence in these records of an environmental effect being passed down the generations. ... In other independent groups around the world, the first hints that there is more to inheritance than just the genes are coming to light. ...
    (uk.people.support.depression)
  • Re: The ghost in your genes
    ... genes - could affect every aspect of our lives. ... sequence - a cornerstone on which modern biology sits. ... evidence that an environmental effect can be inherited in humans. ... is more to inheritance than just the genes are coming to light. ...
    (uk.people.support.depression)
  • Re: On the Cortical Inheritance
    ... inheritance as a non-genetic form of inheritance was neglected/ ... factors other than DNA and genes. ... The cortical inheritance ... inheritance - both for evolution and for biology more generally. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Hamiltons rule
    ... >> proportion of identical genes are besides the point. ... because it is the relatedness at the altruism ... it is not biology at all. ... > which have a small epistatic effect on altruism or on wine preference. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • The Unselfish Gene
    ... The new biology is reasserting the primacy of the whole organism - the ... Scientists eager to uncover genes for heart disease, ... Geneticists were similarly puzzled by an abundance of genes with no ... Systems biology is reasserting the primacy of the whole organism - the ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)