Re: Reductionism denial


"J.A. Legris" <jalegris@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:bc712420-a64e-4707-a075-3073a80b92af@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Mar 28, 3:54 pm, casey <jgkjca...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 29, 3:30 am, Tim Tyler <seemy...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Alpha wrote [snip reductionism denial]:

Well, I'm hardly likely to spend much time debating
this issue! My position is a perfectly common one.
The idea that there is no such thing as "downward
causation" is consistent with all the known evidence,
and is held by many scientists and most particle
physicists.

No case of downward causation has ever been
demonstrated to exist. It is a pseudoscientific
notion, which is not supported by the known laws
of physics.

I see downward causation as a feedback and selective
process from the output of the higher levels to the
lower levels to adjust how they process the next lot
of incoming data.

JC

Joe: Bohr said: "It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find
out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature."

Alpha: whaile that may be true, it of course does not bolster the below.


Joe: Reductionism is just a mode of talking about nature, and so is
emergentism. The things humans say about the world are strictly for
our own use - the subject is not to be confused with the object. In
this sense, there are no macroscopic objects, there are just
interacting systems of subatomic particles. All the accounting that is
required to balance energies, distribute masses, etc. etc. is in the
nature of the particles - there are no conceptual or analytical levels
and there is neither downward nor upward causation. Except as seen fit
by our tiny brains so we can jabber at each other about how we see the
world.

Alpha: Macroscopic systems composed of components demostrate processes and
properties that are not analyzable to the componenets alone. New operators
and operands emerge that are as real as the components (operands) and
operators a the "lower" level. To arbitrarily pick out on level of
descriptions "objects" and can them the sine qua non of exist4nce is
ludicrouos and has no basis in science. THe system Lagrangians do not cover
emergent phenomena of complex dynamical adaptive systems, nor experiences,
nor hunger pangs. There are ontological realities that are the objects of
other levels of description just as well - thank you - as there are at the
level where physics is deemd sufficient.


--
Joe



--
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