Re: Challenge to Curt


"Tim Tyler" <seemysig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:T4QGj.23883$w51.2290@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Alpha wrote:
"Tim Tyler" <seemysig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Alpha wrote:
"Tim Tyler" <seemysig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
forbisgaryg@xxxxxxx wrote:

OK, I think I agree with you on this. It's like saying a ball isn't
identical to a bounce.
Right. But whoever said that a ball was identical to a bounce?

Both balls and bounces are scientific measurable things -
while Alpha would have us apply Leibniz's Law to an
unscientific, unmeasurable, intangible object - known as
"the experience of redness" -
It is ridiculous to claim that experiences are not measurable. THe
reports of such can be combined with other reports, differences picked
out, statistical analysis applied, correlations found, causal effects
found and so forth. Stand psychology and behaviorism (although such
does not explain what is happening at other levels of description,
inferences can be made - just like in subatomic physics!)
Those are all explicable as consequences of neural firing patterns,
without mentioning experience as some separate causal phenomenon.

Then try and describe War and Peace withoout reference to experience (of
reading it)!
It is all ink and cellulose or is therir meaning that arises in the
relationship between the pattern of ink and the congnizing observer?

You want me to provide a neuron-firing-level explanation of
the experience of reading War and Peace?

One reads the book: and as a result, lots of neurons fire
in patterns that are very complicated, and which it is
inappropriate for me to try and condense into this usenet post.

Science proves nothing. Evidence - look at a red rose. Tell me what
you see. I'll do the same, and I ask 1 billion others to do the same.
Except for color blindness or some such, I'll bet the *evidence*
(first-person reports which DOES count as evidence/data) overwhelmingly
is that an experience of red exists. [...]

Similarly, 1 billion metal detectors might all agree that an
iron lump is made of metal - but that doesn't indicate that
there is any experience of "metalness" going on in the
detectors that transcends the details of the electronics
involved.

I agree that there is no evidence of an experience of "metalness" in the
detector. But when a human consciousness touches a metallic object,
there is an experience (reportable and introspectable and reflectable) of
whatever properties arise as a result of that relationship process.

Of course there's an experience. But is it really any different from
a bunch of neurons firing?

From an information-theoretic POV certainly. From an object-oriented (class
structure) or process-oriented (causal effects in Universe) POV, as
certainly.


The 1 billion reports do not bear on that issue.

Sure they do; they are datums that cannot be ignored by any conscientious
scinece of phenomenology or neuroscience.

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Relevant Pages

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