Re: A preliminary look at Spoonerisms

ck wrote:
Wolf wrote:
ck wrote:
Wolf wrote:
ck wrote:
[...]
[..]
Its interesting to see GS ask for definitions of positive
reinforcement, when even Father Skinner acknowledged what
applies for one person won't necessarily apply to another.

Erm, by this reasoning, bridge building has the same problems. What applies to one bridge doesn't necessarily apply to another. Except of course for general principles. Positive reinforcement is a general principle of behaviour modification, and it works whether or not the subject is aware of the reinforcer. You, for example, have certainly been positively reinforced to behave politely, etc -- all the behaviours that make it possible for people to get along with each other. I mean, you weren't born with them, were you? Most of that reinforcement occurred below your level of consciousness, by which I mean you weren't aware that your behaviours were reinforced, nor which ones, only that you were getting along nicely with some other person(s).

General principles aside, my point is how do you know what is
positive, from what is negative?

"By their fruit ye shall know them."

From Wikipedia:
"There are two types of behavioral reinforcers and two types of behavioral punishers.

* Positive reinforcement is an increase in the likelihood of a behavior due to the addition of a reinforcer after a behavior. Giving (or adding) food to a dog contingent on its remaining in a sitting position for a specified length of time is an example of positive reinforcement (if this increases the likelihood of the dog sitting in the future).

* Negative reinforcement is an increase in the likelihood of a behavior when the consequence is the removal of an aversive stimulus. Turning off (or removing) a shock when a rat presses a bar is an example of negative reinforcement (if this increases the likelihood of the rat pressing the bar in the future)."

In other words the positive is only positive judged by results.

Not "judged." _Defined._ Skinner used the terms becasue of the synmbols + (add) and - (take away.)

If you don't understand that, consider the definition of positive and negative electrical charge. (And keep in mind that the discoverers of electrical charge could just as well have called them right and left, up and down, red and green, cheese and crackers - the terminology

My point is in the real word, positive or negative reinforcement
would be practiced with a presumption on what will illicit the
positive or negative response.

What do you mean by positive (or negative) responses? The _definitions_ I quoted refer to increase/decrease in response rates. There is no characterisation of responses.

And it's "elicit", not "illicit."

The person aware of this attempt to control him like a dog, might
show resentful of either attempts, be they positive or negative.

Huh?

Look, when you ask someone nicely to pass the salt, you are providing and operant (the request to pass the salt) and expecting a conditioned response (the person passes the salt.) So, if you want to characterise ordinary social interactions as controlling people like dogs, be my guest.

All you have demonstrated sofar is that you haven't a clue. I doubt your notions of AI are any clearer.


[...]
Ok, an explanation. I am talking from the point of view of the
application of this science, where it is asked to produce a
particular behavior, or make a judgment of behavior.

I don't have a clue what you are talking about. You waffle on with no concrete examples whatever. Your talk is so vague and general, that without the context of this thread the above sentence could just as well apply to physics, or pharmacology, or whatever.

I daren't dwell on specifics,

I've noticed that. So what's the point of all this waffle? If you want to be taken seriously, you have to take requests seriously, too.

And why don't you "dare" to dwell on specifics? I detect a whiff of paranoia here.

[snip the rest]



--
Wolf
'Just because it's true doesn't mean it's the right answer.'
.

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