Re: Beyond Freedom and Dignity: A Philosophical Review

On May 30, 7:28 am, stevendaryl3...@xxxxxxxxx (Daryl McCullough)
wrote:
Allan C Cybulskie says...

On the contrary, in principle it's a huge problem: there is no point
in admonishing people to change things to be a certain way, set
certain values, or aim for a certain society if what they do is only
what the unique combination of their past history and environment
"force" them to do.

Why not? One of those environmental influences is the admonishment
itself. Admonishing people can presumably influence their behavior.
So there is a a point in admonishing people, even if they are only
doing what their past history and environment forces them to do.

Well, Gary made a good point about the latter part, where the
admonisher really doesn't determine or choose IF or HOW they admonish,
but there are problems even before that:

You admonish me. Whether or not that admonishment will change my
behaviour depends entirely on my past history and environment. If my
past history is such that it resonates, then my behaviour is changed;
if it isn't, then it is not. But whether or not my behaviour changes
WITHOUT your admonishment is ALSO dependent entirely on my past
history and environment; I may change without your saying anything to
me. And your admonishment may indeed interact with my past history to
SOLIDIFY my behaviour and make it HARDER to change.

So you have no idea how admonishment will affect me (generally) since
it's determined (it's not the case, for example, that I'll be
"convinced" by what you say on thoughtful reflection since that counts
in the "past history and environment" thing we already talked about).
And you can't make a claim on probability because all that would mean
here is that the majority of people (or a certain percentage) change
their behaviour with a certain stimulus. All you can do is ask that
the admonishers look at the past history of the subjects and determine
how to admonish them to change their behaviour ... well, except that
the admonishers CAN'T do that since whether or not they do it is
determined for THEM as well, making admonishment a) difficult to
predict and b) something that cannot be chosen or altered for effect
in any real sense.

The way around these problems is to give some responsibility for the
behaviour to the individual beyond simple genetic endowment ... or,
basically, giving them some free will. Without that, neither
admonishers nor admonished can do anything other than what they do.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Beyond Freedom and Dignity: A Philosophical Review
    ... behaviour depends entirely on my past history and environment. ... And your admonishment may indeed interact with my past history to ... But why is determinism versus free will relevant here? ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: Beyond Freedom and Dignity: A Philosophical Review
    ... behaviour depends entirely on my past history and environment. ... And your admonishment may indeed interact with my past history to ... no real reason to think that your admonishment has any more impact on ... admonishments than to "Booga booga" in those cases, ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: Beyond Freedom and Dignity: A Philosophical Review
    ... *anything* if behavior is determined by past history and environment. ... Admonishment is a very special case. ... And since the controllers and the ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: LS-4 Water bag repair
    ... point during the entire past history of r.a.s. ... Not an "admonishment" at all. ...   One of primary benefits of the ... P.S. Having had an entire LS wing bag dump into my cockpit on course ...
    (rec.aviation.soaring)
  • Re: LS-4 Water bag repair
    ... Now that you have officially received the obligatory admonishment for ... inquiring about something that has been previously discussed at some ... point during the entire past history of r.a.s. ... Not an "admonishment" at all. ...
    (rec.aviation.soaring)