Re: Unconscious Processes



Allan C Cybulskie wrote:
....
>> > This would be great except that I'm pretty
>> > certain that neurons still fire when we have
>> > unconscious reactions to things, so your theory
>> > is, I think, disproven before it gets started.
>
JGCasey wrote:
>> But how do you know they are an unconscious
>> reactions?
>
>
>> If you could objectively observe reactions in my
>> brain how would you determine which ones were
>> "conscious reactions"? And if you can't do that
>> how do you know that parts of your brain aren't
>> also conscious? Are you going to say that my
>> reactions are not conscious just because *you*
>> are not conscious of them?
>
>
> Are you serious?!? Are you really denying the
> idea of unconscious reactions to stimuli?!?


What am I denying is that I can give any *objective*
proof that any particular reaction is conscious or
unconscious in the subjective sense.


> First, if I want to determine if something is
> unconscious to you, the easiest what to do it
> is to, well, ASK you if you were aware of the
> thing that you reacted to. This may not be
> objective, but it does work.

It is an assumption based on the inference that
you can believe what you tell yourself as regards
your own conscious states.


> Second, we are well aware of unconscious reactions.
> We can drive places without being aware of the
> little tasks we did along the way. We can walk
> and avoid street poles without being aware that
> we did so. And subliminal messaging is based on
> precisely that sort of functionality. So this whole
> discussion seems pointless.

>>From the point of view of "common sense" and being
"practical" you are probably right, the discussion
may seem pointless. It was a philosophical point I
was making *and it wasn't thought up by me*.

I would question my own beliefs, in particular
those things I have taken as "obvious". It was
Einstein was attributed with the comment that
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices
acquired by age eighteen."

Common sense tells you that there must be unconscious
processes *because you are not aware of them*. But
you are actually not aware of most things *including
things happening in other brains*. Yet in those cases
you *infer* there are conscious processes happening.


> And finally, I said nothing about something being
> unconscious in you because I wasn't conscious of
> it in you, so I don't know WHERE you got that.

No I wrote it because I had just read it before I sent
the post and thought it made a good point. You infer
consciousness in others. You cannot *objectively*
observe it however. You infer unconscious processes
in you own brain because you cannot *remember* being
aware of them.

But who do you think that *you* is? That you that
declares anything it can remember as having being
"conscious" and declares everything else as being
"unconcious". I would not be quick to believe what
I tell myself.

So what do you think makes that *you* process
conscious? It is after all just a neural process
(activity, whatever) that is different to other
neural processes in what way?

--
JC

.

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