Re: The definition of the Standard variation of British English

"Wood Avens" <woodavens@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelelsen
news:4bkj7595k5fk9j2lltk1kfbc2qmm1oact7@xxxxxxxxxx
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 20:05:20 +0200, "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote:
I think this has come up before. Your use of 'notion' is unusual in
English. We are more likely to use 'idea' in a sentence like yours.


The word "notion" is not at all unusual in British English - it might
be
in American English, which I don't know anything of, but not in
British
English.


Arne, Linz speaks British English. So do I. I've done so all my
life, which is now over six decades. Believe me when I say that in
British English "notion" is a) old-fashioned (and therefore unusual),
and b) in this context mildly derogatory.

There is not any derogatory meaning in this - if so, it is peculiar that
not any of the reputable sources seem to have made this remark at all.
All the examples below are from literature, media etc. and it is
frequently used as I see it.

When Linz says that "idea"
better suits your meaning, she is completely correct.

It really
doesn't help your aim of being accepted as a reasonable person if you
continually assume, and assert, that you know better than all the
highly-educated native speakers in this group.

I agree that there are highly educated native speakers in this group,
but do I have to agree with them just because of that? Am I not entitled
to disagree when I know from other highly educated native speakers at
university that the word is ok? Does this notion of yours that the
"highly educated native speakers" means that I have to accept their
'notion' without any doubt., without any questions, without any opinion
of my own? Do you expect me to bow into the dust becuase some native
speakers here have some other opinion or would you agree that everybody
must defend their opinions, that we are not in the 1800s where one had
to kneel for the authorities without any questions at all?

If you think so, you are so wrong. I am a school teacher, and I have
pupils every day who don't accept the mere thought that I am right just
because of this. They are asking critical questions to every thing we as
teachers say. This is the way our school system have brought them up to
do. Never take everything for granted. Your upbringing may have been
"yes, sir, no, sir" to everything the adults told you - it is not so
here. And I am a product of this 'notion'. However, please, think about
this:

1. One of my hardest critic Tony Cooper says that it is not unusual -
and he is a native speaker of English. He adds that it might have
something to do with the way older people and younger people
communicate.
2. Tell me why I should trust you more than I should trust Cooper?
3. Concise Oxford English Dictionary (Eleventh Edition) has:

Notion: A concept or belief. A vague awareness or understanding.

Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English:
Notion; An idea, belief, or opinion

And it has "Extra dictionary examples":

"Humans still hold on to the absurd notion that we are the only
intelligent beings in the Universe.
Many widely-held notions about crime have come from the cinema,
magazines, or novels.
Modern society does not always correspond to classical notions of
democracy."
´
'Sentences from books, newspapers, etc.:
"A decade ago, even the notion of Phoenix as big-time was laughable.
An analogy can be drawn with the notion of mutations in genetics.
Even some former skeptics said that probably 95 percent of experts now
accept the notion.
Home is a notion that only the nations of the homeless fully appreciate
and only the uprooted comprehend.
In the post-war period some democratic elitists detected a major flaw in
this notion of bureaucratic rationality.
The heart of the legal notion of partnership consists in the mutual
trust and confidence of the participants.
Though Centralism comes in many guises and applications, the basic
notionss that fuel it are remarkably consistent-as are the results.´"


I have more:
http://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&defl=en&q=define:notion&ei=NP15SvrFK8f5-Aa9u-TLBQ&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

0r

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/notion

or

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/notion

or

http://www.answers.com/topic/notion

Now tell me again: why should I believe your 'notion' of the usage of
the word when the dictionaries don't say anything about this? and
moreover, why should other reputable sources, lectures, native speakers
use the word if it isn't usual?

In other words: Why should your opinion take precedence over all the
other reputable sources, native speakers - even in this group?

Tell me why, please?

You might as well be living in England, being a native speaker and all
that, but even Danes don't know their own language to the full extend -
why should you then? Don't you think there might be something about the
English language you don't know?

Even if you find it unusual, it doesn't mean that it really is in
certain circles. I know for a fact that my lecturers at university use
the word frequently - and they are also native speakers and they don't
find it unusual. Do your 'notion' take precedence over all these fine
native speakers here?

I don't say that you cannot be right in this, but I urge you to tell me
why you think that all the examples taken from all kinds of literature
and native speakers' talking are wrong and you and Linz are the only
persons who are correct in this?

I have said it before and I mention it again: I am not a person who just
accept your authority (just because you are native speakers ) without
you at least tell me why your 'notion' is more correct than other
'notions' of this subject matter.

Let me quote what Oxford Concise Companion to the English Language say
about native speaker:

"A person who has spoken a certain language since early childhood: A
native speaker of French. Native speakers are often appealed to,
including by linguists, over questions of correct usage., because
traditionally the language in which they are fluent has been regarded as
their exclusive property. Some linguists, however, have in recent years
argued that no one i s'born' inot a language (as the etymology of the
usage suggests) but acquires ti from an environment that may in fact
change in childhood, adolescence, or later, causing an individual to
develop a second language into a medium as personal as the first
(sometimes losing skills in the earlier 'mother tongue'). Whether such a
non-native speaker is able to acqujire the same command of the language
as a native speaker is a much-debated question to which there is no
simple answer. Native and non-native are not clear-cut homogeneous
categories; each group comprises wide variations depending on such
individual factors as regional or national origin, age of learning (for
non-natives) degree of formal training, aspirations, and sense of
identity."

No, my friend - even if it is not a word known to you, it isn't the same
as it is unusual. It is, as you have seen, quite frequently used in many
contexts.

But now I haven't time to discuss this 'notion' any further - I am
starting my job tomorrow - the holiday is over. I might want to play
with you some other time -but for now I bid you farewell - the rest is
silence.


.

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