Re: OED pronunciation transcriptions

Egbert White <eggwhite@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:32:00 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
<kirshenbaum@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Egbert White <eggwhite@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

The meaning of 'schwa' seems obvious, except that I don't believe an
American would pronounce 'turducken' with a schwa in the second
syllable, since the word is a blend of 'turkey,' 'duck,' and
'chicken.'

Note that MWCD11 gives "duck" as having a schwa.

Yes, MW dictionaries consistently use schwa where I use /V/ in
stressed syllables and schwa for unstressed vowels like the 'o' in
'bacon.' But note that in the transcriptions I copied and pasted,
the OED has 'revv' (IPA reverse V) for the 'duck' in 'turducken.'
They also use 'revv' in the unstressed position in BrE
'productivity':

Yes. British English makes the distinction. That seems to be what
the OED is saying. For British English speakers, who have a distinct
/V/, that's the vowel used in "turducken", while for American English
speakers, who don't, the vowel they use is /@/.

Brit. /{smm}pr{rfa}d{revv}k{sm}t{shti}v{shtibar}ti/,

so I don't think they go to the extreme that MW dictionaries go to.

Rather, I'd say that, as the slashes indicate, they're being precise
about the phonemics of the two systems.

This follows what I learned in Phonetics & Phonology class back in the
'80s: in most American dialects there is no phonemic contrast that
would keep you from deciding that the stressed vowel in "duck", "bud",
"bus", or "above" is /@/, and so you should call it that.

I have suggested two different symbols, [@] and [V], for the vowel
in "bud" ... Most Americans will have a fairly central vowel [@].
But most speakers of British English will have a vowel of this
quality in "bird," and will use the lower vowel [V] in "bud."

I've gotten the impression that most BrE speakers say 'bird' to sound
to me more like /bVd/ than like my /b@rd/. For me, it's an
outstanding characteristic of BrE pronunciation.

From a phonemic point of view, it doesn't matter what it sounds like
to you. What matters is what it sounds like to them.

Say the word "above" and note whether the two vowels are
approximately the same. If they are, the most appropriate
symbol for both is [@]. But if you have the same vowel in both
syllables of the phrase "a bird," you should probably transcribe
both of them with [@], and use [V] for the vowel in "bud."

...

I have used [@] for the vowel in "but" for most forms of American
English, restricting the [V] symbol to those forms of English that
distinguish between "bud" and "bird" without using an r-colored
vowel.

Peter Ladefoged, _A Course in Phonetics_, 2e,
1982.

In everyday speech I normally and clearly say /b@t/ for 'but' (with a
vowel like 'o' in 'bacon,' not like the 'u' in "buckin'"), except when
'but' is stressed. I would expect most Americans to do the same.

Unless you've got a good reason to believe that "but" is actually
pronounced differently when prosodically stressed or unstressed,
that's pretty good evidence that the vowel is the same in both cases.
(Vowels in open syllables, e.g., "to", or syllables ending in /r/,
e.g., "for", clearly do, but I don't think other changes are
productive.)

But in any case, how do you do on the actual tests he proposes. Do
you have essentially the same vowel in "above" or in "a bird"? Do you
distinguish between "bud" and "bird" without using an r-colored vowel?

Incidentally, somewhere Peter Ladefoged (RIP) said that the vowel
corresponding to ASCII IPA /A./ is <i>sometimes</i> rounded. That
makes me tend to look somewhat askance at anything else he said.

Given that he was president of both the Linguistic Society of America
nad the International Phonetic Association, I think I'd be likely to
give what he says a bit more weight.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
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Relevant Pages

  • Re: OED pronunciation transcriptions
    ... American would pronounce 'turducken' with a schwa in the second ... Note that MWCD11 gives "duck" as having a schwa. ... But most speakers of British English will have a vowel of this ... But if you have the same vowel in both syllables of the ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: OED pronunciation transcriptions
    ... American would pronounce 'turducken' with a schwa in the second ... Note that MWCD11 gives "duck" as having a schwa. ... But most speakers of British English will have a vowel of this ... But if you have the same vowel in both syllables of the ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: OED pronunciation transcriptions
    ... American would pronounce 'turducken' with a schwa in the second ... Note that MWCD11 gives "duck" as having a schwa. ... But most speakers of British English will have a vowel of this ... I don't think words like "butter" have the same vowel in both syllables. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: "turned script a" [was: Re: "Want" in AmEng and RP (was: want vs. wont)]
    ... That vowel is also used by an Englishman in ... fully aware of the English English use of. ... My experience and belief are that most American use, ... A westerner ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Technical name for british accent "cinemar"
    ... "voiced" schwa. ... for an unvoiced indistinct vowel sound, ...
    (alt.usage.english)
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