Re: to a certain extent vs. at a certain extent

On Mar 10, 6:42 am, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:19:23 -0700 (PDT), Yendrick



<jedruspodl...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 10, 5:02 am, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 09 Mar 2009 22:43:52 -0500, m...@xxxxxxx (Mark Brader) wrote:
David W.:
... how about this? "At a certain extent of blood loss the
patient will die."

Tony Cooper:
I would write that "After a certain extent of blood loss the patient
will die".

And I'd call that wrong.  I'd allow "after" with an amount, but not an
extent -- even though I can't see any reason why it should be that way.

Now wait a minute, Mark.  I wrote "I would write *that*...".  In other
words, given *that* sentence I'd make *that* change.  Even so, I'd
allow "after" and "extent" in the same sentence when I don't know the
amount.

The "at" implies a precise point.  The "certain extent" is an
undetermined point.  The two conflict.

Not if it is a precise but undetermined point.

But there isn't a precise point where a person exsanguinates.  The
person isn't alive after the loss of n ccs of blood and dead after n+1
ccs.  If you are going to stick with the example, you can't impose
something that you can't determine.

Au contraire. That's exactly what the sentence means. the person is
dead once n cc's of blood have been lost. The "n" here means "a
certain number".

Now, the amount may vary from person to person, and vary in a single
person over time, depending on a host of circumstances, including the
way in which the blood is lost. However, for a particular person at a
particular point of time, there is a particular, precise, unique and
quantifiable volume of blood that, when lost, causes death.

That amount could be determined post mortem with the right method.
Whether such a method currently exists is not material. Whether the
amount can be determined at all before death is also not material.

The meaning of the sentence, as I take it, is that there is an
undetermined amount of blood loss that will result in a person's
death.  That fits precisely with your sentence "Now, the amount may
vary from person to person, and vary in a single person over time,
depending on a host of circumstances, including the way in which the
blood is lost."

You mean "unspecified", not "undetermined", which is yet another word
that means something different to scientists than it means to non-
scientists. To determine means "to put a precise value on" in
scientific parlance. As I said before, whether the value has been
determined or not, or even whether it can be determined at all before
death, is immaterial to the concept covered by the word "certain". See
Mark's post in this thread about the boiling point of iron.

The sentence uses "after a certain extent of blood loss" to say
exactly what you have said.  More concisely.   It accommodates the
"person to person" and "vary in a single person over time" and
"depending on a host of circumstances" with a single phrase:  certain
extent.  The sentence doesn't attempt to describe the precise - but
unknown - point.  It doesn't need to.

Exactly. The author is saying that knowledge of the precise value is
not essential to what he has to say. That is why he is not specifying
it. He may or may not know the precise value, and the precise value
may or may not be knowable at all. It may be determined, determinable
but as yet undetermined, not determinable by currently available
methods, not determinable at all, or determinable only after death,
and not before death.

What we're supposed to be doing here is deciding if the sentence
"After a certain extent of blood loss the patient will die".
grammatically and effectively conveys the thought that a person will
die if enough blood is lost.  In my opinion, it does.

Agreed. Just remember that, in the case of David's example, your
opinion has to coincide with the scientific usage of the word, as it
apparently does.

By the way, the other posters in this thread, Hongyi, David, Mark and
I, have all approached this as a question of usage in scientific
writing because this is what Hongyi's posts are usually about.

Yendrick
.

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