Re: Foreigner(s)

"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelelsen
news:csl7r4t7mmlh5bffqba27l3sr7ta2mc26h@xxxxxxxxxx
On Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:32:51 +0100, "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote:

"tony cooper" <tony_cooper213@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelelsen
news:0ri7r45do3g57ofi7gs45if6os5g0fassr@xxxxxxxxxx
On Sun, 8 Mar 2009 06:40:45 -0700 (PDT), jens@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

On 8 Mar., 12:28, "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote:
<j...@xxxxxxxxx> skrev i
meddelelsennews:4e11bf50-76a7-4639-ad59-6c699da3cb76@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On 7 Mar., 14:09, "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> wrote:

"Point of view" is not a compound noun.

Oh, yes - in Danish it is

Yes, the Danish word "synspunkt" is a compound noun.You cannot
seriously be suggesting that that makes "point of view" an English
compund noun.

Yes - same error.

*Well, they are native speakers - so I need a reference from you,
a
trustworthy reference.

Non sequitur. I agree that it is likely that they are native
speakers,
but native speakers make mistakes too. Anyway, I suspect that you
could have looked it up in one of your own dictionaries. Otherwise,
try these:

Arne appears to limit his "trustworthy reference" sources to two
people: a female student in his class and someone in Scotland.
Neither of which seems to speak standard English. Non-trustworthy
references include everyone who disagrees with Arne.

No, I have several grammar books of English - and several dictionaries
of the English language. It has, however, not escaped my observation
that even if I am right according to my books, you only say that I am
wrong or the dictionaries are wrong, because you always know better
because you are a native speaker.

So all native speakers, including the persons who wrote the books must
consequently be wrong and you are always right. Is this what you mean?

Or should I put it in another way:

§1. Tony Cooper is always right
§2. If T.C. is wrong, one must look at §1 at once.

I'd put it a third way:

3. The dictionary or book provides the correct answer, but Arne is
not asking the right question.

Or you don't understand the right question - but anyhow, you seem to be
right all the time:

"He must have been being interviewed" - wasn't it you who said that this
sentence is wrong?

An example of this could be the use of the word "muster". A sentence
using "muster" might be "I collected a muster of the insect that is
infesting my yard and took it to be examined".

That sentence would not pass muster in AmE. Yet, I can defend it by
providing a dictionary definition that exactly fits the usage. If
told that my defense is foolish because my meaning - as intended -
would not be understood by readers of my sentence, but I adamantly
insisted that an extant definition that makes the sentence work, I
would be doing what you do.

Probably - but if you find a word in a Danish dictionary and claims that
it is Danish and refer to the dictionary, even Danes who cannot agree
with you in this, must yield to the dictionary.

An example which you might not know as you are not speaking Danish. I
say that "ombudsmand" is a Danish word. I can find it in my dictionary
and educated Danes know the word.

When they use it in English, it is called "ombudsman" - and if the
English claim that it is an English word, who is right, then? According
to our dictionaries the word is Danish, according to the English
dictionary it is English. Who is to be believed in this notion? The
English og the Danish dictionary?

Moreover, Lars in this group would claim that it is not Danish, but
Swedish coming from Old Norse, so who to be trusted?

Foreigners like us must have a certain respect for the dictionaries we
own, and even if a native speaker tells us otherwise, we must have
confidence in the books as we cannot have an Englishman beside us every
moment of the day.

Native speakers, however, do make mistakes, so again: the dictionary is
our friend.

Again: how come that the English native speakers say that the sentence
"he must have been being interviewed" wheras some American native
speakers tell us that it is wrong?
Again the dictionaries and the grammar books are our only friend in this
matter.

My Danish pupils did not understand why I once said: "I am looking
forward to meeting you" - "It sounds wrong" they said. I had to tell
them that the only persons who really can say what sounds wrong and what
doesn't are native speakers. You can, however, learn a lot of idioms
which tell you about the usual use of a sentence.
I had to explain to my pupils how the grammar works in English instead
of pretending to be a native speaker, so the only explanation I had was
the grammar book who explained it to me and I to the children. They
still think that it is odd, as we do not use an -ing-form in this
context in Danish. (we actually don't have any ing-forms at all)

On the other hand I once tried to convince some girls that you could
differ between the Danish word "den" and "det" in the genitive: Huset er
malet. Dets farve er rød. (The house has been painted. Its colour is
red).
In English you don't differ between the word 'it' even the word
originally is of female gender or masculine gender, besides the fact
that you use "she" about ships.
You use the same word for 'dog' and 'cat' or even house when you write
it down.
The Danish girls, however, were impossible to convince that you say
"...its colour is red" because the word "dets" is not very often used in
Danish. As they had not heard it before or very often they thought I was
pulling their legs (plural here as it refers to all their individual
leg?)

My point is that even native speakers can be wrong, and the mere thought
that a native speaker always knows better, is not my opinion.Therefore I
must use books and sometimes I must stick to them even what native
speakers are saying.

Another example. An English native speaker was once my colleague. I said
to him that subjunctive is often used when one uses "if" in the
beginning of a sentence. I said "If I were..." - he said that it is
called: "If I was" - we made a bet, which I won. I could substantiate it
with several texts: If you were the only girl in the world, and I were
the only boy", "if I were a rich man" etc.

He didn't like to admit it, though - but finally he had to do it.

So neither the English native speakers nor the Danish native speakers
are always right when dealing with their grammar of their languages,
respectively.




.

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