Re: in collaboration with

Fred Springer wrote:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:07:40 +0100, Fred Springer
<fred.springer@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Roland Hutchinson wrote:
Bob Cunningham wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:05:23 -0400, Roland Hutchinson
<my.spamtrap@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[...]

ceteris paribus (=all other things being equal): a bit obscure,
I wonder if it would be more accurate to say "ceteris paribus" means
"other things being equal" and not necessarily "all other things".
It would certainly be more literal. I think the English version usually
includes the "all" -- very little if any difference in meaning whether it's
there or not, I would judge.

"Ceteris paribus" will always be associated in my mind with _Lasker's
Manual of Chess_, by Emanuel Lasker. He used it quite a few times in
that book, and that may be the only place I've encountered it until
now.
Interesting. I think I first encountered it in some mathematical treatise
or other: maybe logic or model theory or something along those lines. It's
not something I bump into often, for sure.
The phrase occurs rather a lot in economic theory, where relationships between two variables are investigated on the assumption that other variables in the system remain constant.

One of the frustrations -- and charms -- of studying economics is that in practice ceteris never are paribus, rendering fruitless most attempts to validate theory by reference to the real world.
In your economics experience, how is "ceteris paribus" pronounced?

I would like to pronounce it "SET@r@s PER@b@s", following the
precedent of "et cetera", but the _New Shorter Oxford_ lists
"KATE@ris" in first place, followed by "set-", then "seet-". My favorite American dictionary, the _Webster's New World College
Dictionary_, which is also said to be the primary dictionary for the
Associated Press and many newspapers, shows only the pronunciation I
like, "set-".

The online _Merriam Webster's_ (m-w.com) has the "Kate" pronunciation
first, followed by "ket", then "set".

Let me hasten to say that I realize the order of showing
pronunciations in dictionaries doesn't necessarily imply frequency of
use or usage preference.

In my day economists pronounced it "seteris". But my studies in the dismal science were a long time ago, and it may be that the "kayteris" pronunciation is more general now. It's certainly what's given in the Cassell Dictionary of Foreign Words & Phrases", with no alternative pronunciation offered.

I have always been very wary of the pronunciation of Latin phrases that have become well-established in English, because I was taught the so-called "scientific" pronunciation of the language at school, which purported to be (approximately) the way it had been pronounced by the Romans. For example, we didn't pronounce Caesar as "seize 'er", but "kyzaar". "Kayteris" follows the scientific principle, whereas "seteris" is almost certainly what the 17th century coiners of the phrase would have said.

Even today, saying "prima facie" in the scientific way to an English lawyer will make him roar with laughter. He says "primmer fayshee" whereas I'd been taught to say "preemah fakeeay". AP Herbert had a lot of fun with that in one of his court-room stories. Anyone remember them? "Misleading Cases in Uncommon Law" was the title of one collection of them.

Towards the end of your second paragraph I was thinking of replying, very much along the lines of your third, so the answer to the question is clearly "yes".
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: "Often"
    ... I study Spanish linguistics and the same ... now that many English speakers can read. ... You mean Americans do pronounce the /t/? ... pronunciation to historical spelling is at least as interesting as dropping ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Karazhan = Gearasdan?
    ... American, and noticing how differently the English manage to pronounce ... example, using the set rules of official english pronunciation, should ...
    (alt.games.warcraft)
  • Re: BBC does it again
    ... pronounce it differently.- ... pronunciation as you can get without code-switching. ... Besides that, you have invented some alchemical set of rules governing how speakers from Place X where English is spoken should pronounce this one name, yet when it's pointed out to you that you don't follow those rules yourself, you are mystified as to why anyone would think it was relevant. ... Because they speak English the way English is spoken in England. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: in collaboration with
    ... I would like to pronounce it "SET@r@s PER@b@s", ... pronunciations in dictionaries doesn't necessarily imply frequency of ... But my studies in the dismal science were a long time ago, and it may be that the "kayteris" pronunciation is more general now. ... I have always been very wary of the pronunciation of Latin phrases that have become well-established in English, because I was taught the so-called "scientific" pronunciation of the language at school, which purported to be the way it had been pronounced by the Romans. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Esperantist lies (Re: Learning a language)
    ... > My English teacher (teaching English in Polish school despite not being a ... I also like dictionaries to have IPA. ... >> are an approximation of the French pronunciation using English ... >> So how do you find an unfamiliar character in a Chinese dictionary? ...
    (sci.lang)