Re: Past perfect and "before"
- From: Jim Karatassos <jim.karatassos@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 22:14:21 -0700 (PDT)
On Aug 5, 9:21 pm, datere <ee123456...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thank you for the replies. Jim and everyone. But I still don't
understand why the first sentence "She never saw a bear before she
moved to Alaska." is considered incorrect. I found quite many similar
usage here inhttp://books.google.com/books?lr=&hl=zh-TW&q=%22She+never+saw+a+*+bef...
, so I don't think this sentence could be considered "incorrect".
What's your opinions about it? I'd appreciate it if you could tell me
why it is incorrect.
I would say that the example sentence isn't incorrect, just not very
well-written. I would further say that the www.englishpage.com
explanation takes a guideline and tries to turn it into a rule, or
rather, confuses a guideline that has become less and less important
over time in English with a hard-and-fast rule. This is one of the
most common failings of poorly-written grammar explanations, and is
particularly common when explaining the use of the past perfect
tenses.
-------------------------------------------------------
Parrott (above) again, speaking in 2000.
Very often, context provides SOME information about the sequence of
events. In this case, choosing between simple past and past perfect
involves making subtle judgments about how much information is
needed,
and we generally prefer to provide too much rather than to risk
misunderstanding.
--------------------------------------------------------
Your sentence:
"She never saw a bear before she moved to Alaska."
There just really isn't enough clarity in this sentence to fully and
immediately justify the use of the simple past in the first clause.
DC pointed out that this kind of fuzziness is more specific to AmE
than BrE, and I would have to agree with him (I'm an AmE speaker).
Most of the examples that came up in your search from
http://books.google.com/books?lr=&hl=zh-TW&q=%22She+never+saw+a+*+bef....
are of colloquial, occasionally countrified, American English
usage...and of course, you have no way of knowing.
--------------------------------
DC (Django Cat -- who is also, FYI, a language teacher with quite a
bit of experience) is a BrE speaker. If we take our discussion on
grammar back in time -- to the tradition Swan credits as having first
excited his interest in English grammar -- this was how this guideline
was expressed in:
_A Comprehensive English Grammar for Foreign Students_, by C.E amd
J.M. Eckersley, Longman Group Ltd: London, 1960.
page 178
Some of the conjunctions with which the Past Perfect tense is often
associated are: before, when, after, once, as soon as, until, e.g.
He came round to our house BEFORE I had finished my breakfast.
WHEN/AFTER the cheering had died down, the Prime Minister began his
speech.
ONCE/AS SOON AS approval of the plans had been given, the word went
ahead rapidly.
It was not UNTIL I had read your letter that I understood the true
state of affairs.
-----------------------------------
In a respectable, specifically American ESL grammar book,
_Understanding and Using English Grammar_, 3rd edition, by Betty
Schrampfer Azar, Prentice-Hall Regents: New Jersey 1999, Azar puts it
this way.
P. 45
If either BEFORE or AFTER is used in the sentence, the past perfect is
often not necessary because the time relatuionship is already clear.
The simple past may be used, as in (e) and (g). Note: (d) and (e) have
the same meaning; (f) and (g) have the same meaning.
(d) Sam had left before Ann got there.
(e) Sam left before Ann got there.
(f) After the guests had left, I went to bed.
(g) After the guests left, I went to bed.
------------------------------------
The last BrE grammar book explaantion I can offer you is _Advanced
Grammar in Use_, 2nd edition, Martin Hewling, Cambridge University
Press, 2005. In general, I do not consider this book to be as well-
written as the others I have cited, but it's still a lot better than
almost anything you'll find free on the Internet.
Unit 5C, page 10
If the order of past events is clear from the context (for example, if
time expressions make the order clear) we can often use either the
past perfect or the past simple:
After Ivan had finished reading, he put out the light. (OR ...Ivan
finished...)
They were given help and advice before they had made the decision.
(OR ...they made...)
The two leaders agreed to meet, even though earlier talks had failed
to reach an agreeement. (OR ...talks failed...)
-------------------------------------------
Once again, a difficult answer to a difficult question, but you can
see how this has changed over time.
I'm afraid that's as clear as this problem point in English grammar is
at this time in the history of our language.
.
- References:
- Past perfect and "before"
- From: datere
- Re: Past perfect and "before"
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