Re: "reason is because"?

Bob Cunningham wrote:
"Skitt" said:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
"Skitt" said:
Bob Cunningham wrote:

One of the things my English teachers used to inveigh
against was "the reason is because ... ". We were told
that, like writing "all right" as one word, that was an
absolute no-no. We must say "the reason is that ... ".

So while watching the "debate" between Obama and Clinton
this evening, I found it interesting to hear Hilary start a
statement with "The reason is because ... ".

Is "the reason is because ... " accepted nowadays as
impeccable English?

Well, Hillary also said "between Obama and I", as I recall. I
know I cringed. Her speech is not as impeccable as might be
desired.

"Between you and I" is not completely indefensible. I think
some people say it who are well aware of the nominative and
objective cases and who know that the object of a
preposition is traditionally required to be in the objective
case. They say it despite that knowledge because they think
it sounds better.

When a more up-to-date pronoun paradigm becomes prevalent,
it should recognize that "I" can be objective case in a
particular context. (It should also recognize that in
certain contexts the pronouns "they", "them", and "their"
can be either singular or plural.)

The Evanses, in their _Dictionary of Contemporary American
Usage_, say

between you and I is not standard English, but this
particular expression has such a long and honorable
history and has been used by so many great writers
that it cannot be classed as a mistaken attempt to
speak "elegant" English.

I believe that whatever reasons there are for "between you
and I" to be possibly acceptable should apply equally well
to "between Obama and I".

I didn't notice Hilary's saying it, but if I had, I wouldn't
have cringed, but would have noted it as support for what
I've read in usage guides about "between you and I".

Well, I have not given up on traditional grammar yet. Recently I
heard Don Nelson (coach of the GG Warriors) use the possessive form
of "you and I" by saying "you and I's". Is that acceptable to you,
and if not, why, and when will it become acceptable to you? Just
wondering.

By the way, from the AUE FAQ:

The prescriptive rule is to use "you and I" in the same contexts
as "I" (i.e., as a subject), and "you and me" in the same contexts
as "me" (i.e., as an object). In "between you and me", since "you
and me" is the object of the preposition "between", "me" is the only
correct form. But English-speakers have a tendency to regard
compounds joined with "and" as units, so that some speakers use "you
and me" exclusively, and others use "you and I" exclusively,
although such practices "have no place in modern edited prose"
(WDEU).

Mark quoted part of what _MWDEU_* (formerly _WDEU_) says.
What it says more fully is

Conclusion: you are probably safe in retaining
_between you and I_ in your casual speech, if it
exists there naturally, and you would be true to
life in placing it in the mouths of fictional
characters. But you had better avoid it in
essays and other works of a discursive nature.
If you use it, someone is sure to notice and
disparage your character, background, or
education. What is more, it seems to have no
place in modern edited prose.

In other words, it should really be considered normal
English, but there will always be some reader or listener
who doesn't know that. It's a case of perhaps damned if you
do but not if you don't.

My gut feeling is that "between you and me" sounds more
intimate than "between you and I". If Hillary had said
"between Obama and me", she might have felt that it
suggested more intimacy than she felt. By saying "between
Obama and I" she may have been trying to achieve a degree of
formality she wanted to preserve.

That would be an intentional hypercorrection, wouldn't it?


"Between you and I" was used by Shakespeare in The
Merchant of Venice. Since this antedates the teaching of English
grammar, it is probably *not* "hypercorrection". (This is mentioned
merely to caution against the hypercorrection theory, not to defend
the phrase.) Shakespeare also used "between you and me".

Mark tells us that _MWDEU_ quotes Shakespeare using "between
you and I", but he probably feels that he hasn't enough room
to tell us that it also quotes presumably respected authors
using it in 1597, 1694, 1697, and 1701.

They say

But then, in the mid-19th century, we find this:

Between you and I, I believe that the secret of
Ma's willingness to allow me to go to South
America lies in the fact that she is afraid I
am going to get married.
-- Samuel Clemens, letter 5 Aug. 1856

H. L. Mencken remarks that Twain regularly used
_between you and I_ until William Dean Howells
took him in hand.

Even good writers have had problems now and then.


Also, the good Senator's name is Hillary, not Hilary.

Thank you. I'll try to remember.

*
_Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage_, formerly
_Webster's Dictionary of English Usage_

--
Skitt (AmE)
not a pedant, but gosh, really ...

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Negative of "used to" in Australian English
    ... follows the usual rules. ... I think part of the reason people write "didn't used to" is because ... _Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage_, ... And yet the Oxford Guide to English Usage (available for free download ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: "reason is because"?
    ... We must say "the reason is that ... ... Well, Hillary also said "between Obama and I", as I recall. ... between you and I is not standard English, ... _Webster's Dictionary of English Usage_ ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Mystery passive
    ... and that is probably key to the reason why that form was ... This assertion receives-the-act-of ... English simply does not have a direct equivalent. ... on the recipient is to emphasise their grievance. ...
    (sci.lang.japan)
  • Re: book recommendation
    ... have been translated into idiosyncratic English by Fallaci ... power in this context, in the sense of the power or potential of reason rather than force as in "the force of gravity" (forza de gravita) so this suggests that she thought of forza in the latter sense. ...
    (alt.support.arthritis)
  • Re: PHILADELPHIA - Bistec con queso? Not at Genos Steaks.
    ... He's just supporting the reasonable notion that English is ... reason the powers of be have chosen to never ratify it as such. ... immigrants do not come here for a better life. ... lack of english speaking skills and health insurance. ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.phila-eagles)