Re: Please opine: Subjunctive or hogwash

On Nov 22, 4:21 pm, Michael West <> wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:52:50 -0800 (PST), jinhyun





<jinhyunsh...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 22, 2:37 pm, jinhyun <jinhyunsh...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 22, 1:40 pm, Michael West <> wrote:

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:04:53 -0800 (PST), jinhyun

<jinhyunsh...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 22, 5:57 am, Michael West <mbw...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
But I can't agree that the "straightforward indicative" is "equally
correct" if it results in a statement with a different meaning. "I
insist that he goes home" is not semantically equivalent to "I insist
that he go home."

The first statement, as I understand English, is a description of what
is the case. That's what "indicative" means.

The second is a statement about what is not yet, but should be, the
case.

I think that the British defense would be that it is almost certain to
be clear from the context which is meant.

Clear to someone. As would "Mmmfffgghhbb fuckin home".

Come on, not that bad!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For what it's worth, I don't think that 'I suggest that the boy is
sent home' sounds bad, just awkward; there's a 'Oops, what'd I just
say?' feel to it. In writing, I'd avoid both by using a less glaring
form of the subjunctive or by avoiding the subjunctive altogether;
while speaking, I'm more likely to blurt out the form using the
subunctive, even a glaring one than the one using the indicative.

Really, now -- isn't this whole "sounds bad" business as you're using
it just a matter of what dialect one is accustomed to? What "sounds
bad" to you sounds fine to someone else. It's worthless as a critique
of someone's usage. Usage issues can be discussed in terms of
so-called rules and conventions and historical precedent and arguments
from authority, but this "sounds bad" jazz is just lame.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're quite right that it is lame as a criterion for the validity of
a usage because aesthetic judgements are horribly subjective. I only
said it because someone here had said that it is a good example of
cacophony and it didn't appear to me in that light; I wasn't trying to
urge it as proof of its validity in any dialect, but equally, the fact
that it sounds horrible to you cannot be urged against it in a
different dialect

I had an argument the other day about how 'own up to' sounds horrible
to me. I'd always use the classically correct and, to go by
dictionaries, still legimate 'own' in a sentence such as 'I own that I
made a mistake' (In fact, many dictionaries still list it as the sole
legtimate form) That is because in the books I read, that is the only
form likely to appear in a serious context; occassionally in a more
light-hearted context, but never in a serious one, 'own to' as in 'I
own to having a weakness for blondes'; much more rarely, 'own up' as
in 'I owned up'; but I wouldn't ever expect to see 'I owned up to my
mistake' anywhere in what I regard as good literature; but apparently
that is not how most people perceive it nowadays
.