Re: "Often"

"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Earle Horton wrote:
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Earle Horton wrote:
But it should be remembered that literate people replacing the "t"
sound for "correctness" is not any less legitimate than illiterates
removing it for ease of pronunciation.

I'm not entirely sure I understand your point, but if you're
thinking of the words Dominic listed -- "hasten" etc -- then you're
quite mistaken.

Like Dominic, you do not cite any authority for your claim. My point
is that elision of the "t" in the fifteenth century is widely
believed to be a more "authentic" process than educated people
putting it back in the nineteenth. How does one make this
determination? This is one case in linguistics where the work of
ignorant peasants seems to be valued more highly than that of
educated city dwellers. I study Spanish linguistics and the same
sort of processes occur there. I am of course "slumming" right now.

Despite our rough and ready ways, we unlaved oiks down here in the
back-to-backs do appreciate the honour, I assure you.

English linguistics _always_ seems to value the work of ignorant
peasants above that of educated city-dwellers.

Not always. The "t" in "often" has made it into the dictionary, legitimized
by some panel which no doubt includes linguists. I am sure this only
happened after a certain percentage of people began to enunciate it.
Numerous other examples exist, now that many English speakers can read. But
somehow the ignorant peasants are more "authentic", from the linguist's
point of view.


You ask me to cite authority for disagreement with a value judgement? A
difficult task. I'll content myself with mentioning that for _hasten_
OED gives _only_ the pronunciation without /t/, and has no discussion on
the subject. Any variation, such as pronouncing the /t/, can probably be
treated as non-standard -- what those of us not deeply imbued with
Spanish linguistics, in our vulgar way, call "wrong".

To a linguist, "right" and "wrong" have little interest. If people are
using a particular form it becomes a "linguistic variable" with "frequency
of use" which can be measured. Then the research money starts pouring in.
Plenty has been spent on both sides of the Atlantic measuring frequency of
use of "non-standard" forms, that the dictionary panels would never admit,
in the hope that we will eventually figure out why people use them. Many
know that it is "wrong" but don't care. Some take a certain pride in it.


One other factor of interest is that people with ".es" addresses tend
to think they own the language, as do those with ".uk" addresses
here. Just an observation. The dialectal variations on the right
bank of the Atlantic also tend to be much greater than on the left.
When right bank people use words like "incorrecto" or "wrong" there
is always a certain sense of irony that comes when the left bank ear
hears it.

You mean Americans do pronounce the /t/? That's interesting news.

I would never do so, having been brought up properly. My daughter
pronounces it clearly, because that is what she has heard in school. It
seems that a lot of them do now. America is going to the dogs.


"Hasten" appears to be a recent (1568) addition to the language

OED gets it back a little, to 1565.

(Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition, 2001) and
in that case the "t" would have originally been silent. However, the
root word "haste" still has it sounded. But those are only
historical arguments.

Like the mere historical evidence that the earliest recorded form of the
word "listen", doesn't have a /t/ in it at all. That's in the
_Lindisfarne Gospels_, from about 950.

If educated people want to put a "t" in, then
who is to stop them?

Nothing's stopping you, other than the mocking laughter of the
Anglophone world at large. Whether it's a sign of education, I don't
really want to debate.

The mocking laughter of the Anglophone world at large didn't stop the
development of African American English, Australian English or the horrid
examples one hears on American TV, not to mention Cockney. Adapting
pronunciation to historical spelling is at least as interesting as dropping
phonemes that have become tiresome to pronounce.

In Spanish we call a change like this a "cultismo", because it is generally
considered a result of literacy and historical spelling. A Spanish example
is the word "texto" or any word with "x" in it really. Most Spanish
academics agree that the standard pronunciation is "testo", but once they
take English lessons and go to university, they pronounce it as you or I
would. Is this "incorrect"? If enough of them do it, it is not.


And what makes it "correct" or not is
ultimately acceptance of the change, not historical precedent.

Good luck with that, then.


Numerous examples exist. I don't really intend on pronouncing the "t" in
"hasten" any time soon, but if I hear people around me doing so, I doubt I
will make much of a point of it. There are other, better things to argue
about, like the town council stealing us blind for a ski lift, a million
dollar recreation center, upgrades to the town campground, and the like.

Saludos cordiales,

Earle



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