Re: Great second cousin?

On Jul 1, 2:27 am, "Skitt" <skit...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dominic Bojarski wrote:
"Skitt" wrote:
Dominic Bojarski wrote:
"Skitt" wrote:
Maria wrote:
Skitt wrote:
Maria wrote:
Skitt wrote:
Maria wrote:
I hear the two /pasta/ pronunciations as: pahs-ta and pass-ta.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pasta

How do you pronounce the 'u' in /but/, Skitt? (Or am I
confusing a "wovel" with a "vowel"? <smile>)

Hah! I have no idea how the vw thing happened. Anyway, but =
***, pronunciationwise.

So you say ***-ta?

How do you say "puss"? I say it like in "pussycat"?

No *** cat there. I should have spelled it "pus."

.......That's not how I say "but" or "***".

I wouldn't have thought so, but "you never know, you know."

I've never heard anyone pronounce it that way,
but I haven't been around the country (US) all that much. (I'm
working on that, though. Southern California is on our tentative
agenda.)

OK, I just listened to the two M-W pronunciations, and mine is
the first one. I would not represent it with "pahsta", though,
as the first vowel is shorter than what "ah" (the "father"
sound) would indicate (to me).

Based that, I'd say we, you and I, pronounce "pasta" much in the
same matter. I may elongate the 'a' a bit more than you do,
though.

Apparently, NTTAWWT.

As to the sound in "pasta" in the first recording, it is identical
to the sound I use in "father", "bother", "cot" and "caught", and
sounds nothing at all like the sound I use in "but".

It's the same sound, only shorter in duration than in the ones you
mention. Oh, except for the "cought", which is a whole nother thing.
I'm a CINC ("cot" is not "caught") type of guy, obviously.

If you used this sound
in "but", it would be identical to my "bought". In fact, I never
heard any American use this sound in "but", although I hear Polish
people do so every day.

Dominic Bojarski

Maybe I can make this even more clear -- I use the same sound as for
the "a" in your last name (in Polish or Latvian).

In Polish, that's practically identical to the sound I use in
"father", "bother", "cot" and "caught" (the mouth isn't open quite as
widely as in the American sound, and it isn't quite as high and
forward, but it's essentially the same sound).

Yes, it is that sound (except for the "caught"), only shorter in duration.
Well, maybe not in your name. That could have been a bad guess on my part.

The sound General American speakers use in "but" and "must" simply
does not exist in Polish, nor is there anything even remotely similar
to it. It takes Poles a very long time to master this sound.

Really? I'll take your word for it, then.

I don't know about Latvian, but in Polish, all vowels are always
pronounced 100% strong. No weakening ever occurs, even in serial
unaccented syllables.

In Latvian, there is a definite distinction, coupled with differences in
meaning, between the durations of all vowels. That's why Latvian uses
macrons for all long vowels. It makes a big difference in conjugation
(there are seven cases, you know). Besides, word ending vowels practically
disappear (they are very short and low in volume).

Accent affects the tone and volume of a
syllable, but not the quality or duration of the vowel. Very different
than in Russian, Ukrainian, German and English, and very similar to
Mexican Spanish.

With all due respect, Skitt, if you have a residual Latvian accent, it
may well be due to the fact that you still have trouble with this very
sound, and never developed an ear for it.

Possibly, but I am quite sensitive to vowel lengths -- mainly because of the
importance of them in Latvian -- something not that important in English
(and apparently, in Polish).

For General American speakers, the difference between the first "a" in
"pasta" and the "u" in "but" is absolutely enormous, and not merely a
matter of duration. This is true for both CIC and CINC speakers. There
is no way that a native speaker will confuse the two sounds in a well-
enunciated sound sample. Perhaps if someone is mumbling, but that is
the reason we would get annoyed and tell them to speak clearly.

I just listened to the recording ten more times, and it still doesn't
sound anything like the sound in "but" or "must" to me. As for my
name, I can't even pronounce it with the "but" sound either in English
or in Polish. In General American, this sound never comes before "r".

By the way, for me, the duration of the vowel is exactly the same in
"pasta", "father", "bother", "cot" and "caught".

Not for me, nor for the M-W sound samples. ("Caught" is completely
different.)

But then so is the duration of the first vowel in "latter" and
"ladder", which I gather is not true for other American speakers.
These words are true homonyms for me.

They are homonyms for me too.

So, either I talk funny, or I'm unable to adequately describe what noises
I'm making. Could be a bit of both. Several AUEers have heard me speak,
and I think they'll agree that I use some pretty normal AmE -- darn close to
American Standard Broadcast stuff.

I used to have pretty good hearing -- suffieciently good for tuning pianos.
There is the unfortunate phenomenon of not hearing oneself objectively that
might be affecting things. Also, I'm getting to be pretty old ...

I shouldn't get into pronunciation threads.
--

I'm sure about the Polish phonetics. I've been living in Poland for
the past five years, and speak pretty decent Polish. I live in Wroc aw
(formerly Breslau), where I teach English to Poles. I spend a lot of
time trying to teach them the sound in "but' and getting them used to
the fact that vowel length and quality in English change with
accentuation and phonetic environment.

By the way, Polish phonetics and Russian phonetics are completely
different.

Even my best friend, who speaks almost native English, has problems
with the rhythm of English, even though we have been living together
for three years now and he is a top-of-his-class linguistics student
(English, Czech, and German). I never speak Polish to him, only
English (and we spend a lot of time talking). Even so, he can't
acquire a feel for the natural flow of the English language.

And I'm sure about the General American sounds, too. I'm a native
speaker, was born in Pennsylvania, studied in San Diego, and worked in
Indiana and Chicago, so I've been exposed to a good range of General
American. My own accent is very NPRish.

I also have two linguistics degrees behind me (Germanistics and
Classical Languages), so I know enough about phonetics.

Of course we all hear ourselves different than we actually sound. I'm
sure you've heard a recording of your voice and thought, "do I really
sound like that?"

Nice to have made your acquaintance, Skitt. I've been reading this
group for many years, and have always found your posts interesting.
Also, I always assumed you were about my age (47), so I was surprised
when you wrote you were getting up in years. I wish you many more and
lots of good health to go with them.

Dominic Bojarski






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