Re: The old who/whom again

On Wed, 30 May 2007, Mike Lyle wrote:
Mark Barratt wrote:

Unfortunately, you must learn to use the personal pronouns correctly.
Despite exceptions like those above, interchanging subjective and
objective forms is not generally considered acceptable. 'Who',
however, may be used as either a subject or an object. 'Whom' may be
ignored, or read as 'who'.

An energetically overstated case, but overstated nonetheless. We can't
wipe out an entire English structure just because somebody affects to
find it old-fashioned or too formal. If I say stuff like "people to who
he owes money" I'll sound an idiot; if I say "people he owes money to"
it may be more informal than the situation warrants; and those who
dislike "people to whom he owes money", are just inverted snobs.

No, it's not a matter of "someone affects", it's a matter of fact, English,
just like other languages, is changing slowly over time, so that something
which decades ago would have been entirely unremarkable may now sound a
little old-fashioned. Someone who is learning English as an additional
language needs to be aware of this, particularly as text books sometimes
struggle to keep up to date with current usage, and literature they read
may reflect the usage of many years ago when it was written.

If someone wants to speak English well now, they (perhaps they need to be
told about the widespread usage of singular they as well) need to know that
in conversation "people he owes money to" is now the most natural sounding
usage, and "people to whom he owes money" is best reserved for formal
writing. As already noted, while "to whom" etc is still reasonably
current, "whom" without a preposition is definitely outdated, so
"people who he sees" sounds more natural in speech and in writing now
than "people whom he sees".

Matthew Huntbach
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The old who/whom again
    ... dislike "people to whom he owes money", ... No, it's not a matter of "someone affects", it's a matter of fact, English, ... may reflect the usage of many years ago when it was written. ... These stock market players are the people whom he sees daily. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: The old who/whom again
    ... and those who dislike "people to whom he owes money", ... English, just like other languages, is changing slowly over time, so ... current usage, and literature they read may reflect the usage of many ... gone on and on before about the way attitudes to language are sometimes ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: The old who/whom again
    ... and those who dislike "people to whom he owes money", ... English, just like other languages, is changing slowly over time, so ... current usage, and literature they read may reflect the usage of many ... I tell all of my students to avoid using 'whom'. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: observable language change - "off of" makes it to the NY Times
    ... Would you use it serious writing? ... that someone would expect the guy who's bitching about a perfectly ordinary English usage to use correct English himself? ... This is sad also. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: The old who/whom again
    ... English, just like other languages, is changing slowly over time, so ... learning English as an additional language needs to be aware of this, ... current usage, and literature they read may reflect the usage of many ... and "people to whom he owes money" is ...
    (alt.usage.english)
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