Re: n. stiff, the antonym?

Tony Cooper wrote:
On 17 Feb 2006 12:59:07 -0800, "Seán O'Leathlóbhair"
<jwlawler@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Tony Cooper wrote:
On 17 Feb 2006 11:07:29 -0800, "Seán O'Leathlóbhair"
<jwlawler@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I would prefer a system in which the staff were paid by the employers
and were not at the mercy of the generosity of the customers.

There are two answers to this. The first is rude: We don't care what
you, a foreigner, prefer. The second is more polite: The custom has
evolved in this country, and must be assumed to be the preference of
those who live here. If not the preference, at least not so
objectionable that we see a need to change it.

This time, you are missing my point. I am not telling you how to run
your country. Indeed I am a foreigner and your internal affairs are
none of my business.

Oh, nonsense. When you say "I would prefer a system in which the
staff were paid by the employers and were not at the mercy of the
generosity of the customers." that is a comment that clearly strains
at telling us how to run our system. It's quite different from saying
"I prefer to travel where it is less complicated for me to pay for a
meal".

Yes, it is a comment but it is up to you whether you pay any attention
or not. Am I not allowed to say what I dislike about your country?
Are any negative comments on America forbidden? If so, I apologise for
any offence caused and I will be careful not to criticise America in
the future. Am I allowed to say what I like about your country (yes, I
do like many aspects as well)? However, I am not sure that would want
to say what I liked if I am forbidden to say what I dislike.

This bit about preferring a system where the poor service people are
not at the mercy of the largess of the customers is a common whinge
with some people. The group most affected - service people - don't
seem to be the ones objecting, though. The ones that leave the field
to do something else usually do so because they see more opportunity
elsewhere, and not because they feel they are at someone's mercy.

Your choices may affect whether or not I choose
to visit the country but beyond that I cannot reasonably criticise
them. I simply meant that I prefer places that don't work this way.

Again, this is a comment on the system and not a comment on your
ability to function when visiting where the system is in place.

See above.

I
have said before that I accept the principle that visitors should make
an attempt to learn the culture of the country. I do make an attempt
to learn and follow your conventions, I never said that I didn't, I
just don't like some of them.

Take your pick, but - as you do so - please consider what customs are
observed in your country that might inconvenience a visitor to your
country, and what your reaction would be to suggestions that the
custom should be changed for the benefit of foreign visitors.

In some countries, the culture is to be tolerant of a foreigner's
different ways. I have not asked you to change your customs. I have
only said that they are not obvious to foreigners and that I don't like
them.

We are not intolerant of your different ways. You can spend weeks
here and never leave a tip and you won't be put on any "Do not admit"
list at airports, branded with scarlet letters, or subjected to
demonstrations at your hotel. A few individuals may voice their
objections, but that will be rare. Just leave the money for the
amount of the bill and exit the place quickly. Few waitresses will
notice before you are safely clear of the parking lot. Don't frequent
the same restaurant twice, or wear a false moustache on your next
visit.

You told a story of the unpleasantness that can result from failing to
leave an adequate tip. I have heard other similar stories. I am lucky
not to have suffered one myself because I managed to learn the system
in time. For any reasonable people, one of these experiences will tell
them that generous tips are required. OK, not legally required but
there is certainly very strong pressure to comply.

I would
expect people from most places would be able to guess that farting in
church would be rude but the size and (near) obligatory status of tips
is not obvious to many first time visitors to the US. Ideally everyone
should read a few guide books before visiting a foreign country but is
someone who has failed to study well enough to understand your tipping
system, a bad person?

I haven't suggested that you are a bad person. However, this topic is
so widely discussed that I would consider that any UK visitor that
does not at least attempt to bone up on the subject before coming here
to be a bit lazy. It's not like it's going to be a surprise.

Well, as I have said many times, I have tried to learn your
conventions. Indeed most Brits are vaguely aware that tips need to be
bigger and more frequent but the exact rules are still not obvious.
What do you expect from visitors from countries with less exposure to
US culture e.g. visitors from mainland China?

If anything, the Chinese and Japanese are more careful in learning and
observing local custom. They have so many of their own that they tend
to pay attention to other's.

Of course, those that live in your country will learn you ways and I
would expect the Chinese and Japanese to observe local customs well. I
was referring to visitors who had just arrived in your country and knew
little off it.

I've lived in a town for years where foreign visitors are a major part
of our economy. I hear service people gripe about some visitors, but
it's usually after the fact. I hear tales of service people reminding
foreign guests of our tipping customs, but I certainly don't have the
sense that this is a major problem. Rude service people are not
something found just in the US.

I don't recall hearing service personnel "remind" customers of the
convention. I would regard that as very rude. "Please note that
although the menu says $10, you are actually expected to pay at least
$12". However, I have seen cards on the tables which explain the
convention. I don't like these either and would react by either
leaving the establishment or paying the exact minimum to satisfy the
rules. I don't always pay only the minimum tip but I pay more when the
service was particularly good and these "reminders" do not constitute
good service to me.

I will happily admit that your service personnel are usually very
helpful and friendly, in fact rather better than ours, but I would
regard saying that rude ones are not found as an exaggeration. Not
common - yes but nonexistent - no.

One time in Chicago, a group of us (mostly America but no Chicagoans)
went to a restaurant and we sat down and ordered a drink. A few
minutes later, a different table with a better view of the stage became
free and we moved to it. It turned out that different tables
"belonged" to different staff and the owner of our original table was
quite upset and unpleasant. Even the Americans in the group failed to
realise that they had broken a rule.

If that is your best example of the difficulties of visiting the UK
then it is an easy country to visit. Most foreign trips for anyone
involve dealing with another currency.

It is not my "best example" because I have to reach for *any* example.
I expect differences and don't find any of them inconvenient enough to
whine about.

My "best example" would be that I dislike traveling in countries where
English is not the prevailing language. I'm not going to object to
their system, though, for this reason.

Conversely, I prefer to travel to countries where English is not the
prevailing language. To me, attempting to learn the local language is
part of the fun. On my recent trip to Florida, I ate mostly in Mexican
restaurants, partly because I like the food but also because I enjoyed
hearing Spanish spoken and having a go at using it myself.

If that is too inconvenient for
you then you will have to stay at home.

Exactly my thoughts about your thoughts.

Well I don't stay at home because there are many countries where I cope
quite happily. Only once did I choose to go to America (the first
time). Most of my other trips have been business but one was because
my wife requested to go there. I am not saying that America is all
bad, there are many things that I like there, but for me, the
attractive to unattractive balance is better in many other holiday
(vacation) destinations.

I also handle this issue as part of the life of a traveller but, for
me, it is a negative point of the US and reduces my enjoyment of visits
there. Pretty much all countries have positive and negative points,
this just happens to be (in my opinion) one of the negative ones of the
US.

Pack a lunch.

No, I will take my holidays (vacations) elsewhere.

--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair

.

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