Re: Parrots and rounded vowels

On 10 Feb 2006 03:00:30 GMT Jordan Abel <random832@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

} On 2006-02-09, R J Valentine <rj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
....
}> When I said "The answer is yes" to your question, I meant that there is no
}> discernable difference between (on the one hand) the sounds for [T] or [D]
}> produced with the tongue in the proper position right behind the teeth and
}> (on the other hand) the sounds for [T] or [D] (respectively) produced with
}> the tongue in the hypothetically linguist-defined position between upper
}> and lower teeth, which nobody (in the idiomatic sense) actually does.
}
} Hold on, _what_?!
}
} stop... back up
}
} I thought the original claim was that the "proper", "linguist-defined"
} position was [the position i use, and AFAIK everyone else i know] with
} the tongue against the tips top teeth and the air passing through a
} small gap between them, or between the two front teeth if there is a gap
} - and that the position you were claiming was the way you really do it
} was against the backs of the teeth - I never imagined that by "between
} the teeth" you meant midway between the two _rows_ of teeth [and,
} presumably, your "further back" is my understanding of the real
} position], or that any linguist had claimed such.

My understanding of your understanding of the real position is the way I
usually make the [T] an [D] sounds. My understanding of the way Evan
Kirshenbaum often or sometimes makes the sounds (described elsewhere in
this subthread) would seem to be the way you never imagined it above,
where he says he could bite the tip of his tongue if he interrupted the
sound midphone (or something). I (whether Bob Cunningham believes it or
not) can pronounce passable [T] and [D] sounds either way, and I might
even switch to the bite-your-tongue position in a high-noise environment
when "lip reading" might be in use. Whether any university-schooled
linguist ever defined it that way doesn't really matter. Both have
certainly been described and attested to in this thread. I could imagine
an overzealous assistant (or is it associate; I always get the two
confused) professor of linguistics "defining" the sound either way (and I
could _still_ make it the other way). Whether an extreme position of both
might produce differences that are phonemic in some other language doesn't
really matter. Either one is way different from [s] or [z] (even if [s]
or [z] could be understood as for instance a German version of [T] or
[D]).

My only reason for cherishing this example is that it is yet another group
of sounds that can be made in several different ways, as Mr. Cunningham's
excellent video of his extremely bright and talented descendants also
demonstrates (though he apparently doesn't agree yet). If a linguist
happens to "define" a sound as being produced one of several possible
ways, that's certainly the way to regurgitate it on a test, and it may be
a leg up for a profoundly deaf person to take a stab at it. Positing
"invisible" lip rounding or "virtual" tongue biting could be a step
towards a middle ground, but parrots and ventriloquists talk on.

I think Evan Kirshenbaum may have a similar example with "L" sounds, too,
but I never quite caught on to how he makes "L" sounds, though I believe
him in anticipation of my eventually seeing the light, as it were.

Cecil Calvert (second Lord Baltimore, and eponym of Cecil County at the
head of the Chesapeake Bay [LEIA]) was married to Anne Arundel (of Anne
Arundel County fame, wherein lies Annapolis of Naval Academy fame, capital
of Maryland and once of the USA), but I don't notice a particular
difference in the pronunciation of their respective L's.

--
rjv
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Parrots and rounded vowels
    ... }>}>> you'll find we can make the same sound with our tongue slightly behind ... }>}>> the teeth. ... }> tongue positions, mox nix which pair is compared). ... small gap between them, or between the two front teeth if there is a gap ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Parrots and rounded vowels
    ... } Jordan Abel wrote: ... }>> you'll find we can make the same sound with our tongue slightly behind ... }>> the teeth. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Parrots and rounded vowels
    ... We may well round our lips in careful speech or to exaggerate the sound, but we can certainly make these sounds without, so I presume it must be the tongue shape or maybe just the overall mouth shape. ... ESL learners are usually taught to put the tongue between the teeth, and indeed, if we make this sound slowly and carefully, that is exactly what we do. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Parrots and rounded vowels
    ... }>}>> you'll find we can make the same sound with our tongue slightly behind ... }>}>> the teeth. ... }> tongue positions, mox nix which pair is compared). ... rather two normal positions and a hypothetically exaggerated position more ...
    (alt.usage.english)
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