Re: Bespoke

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:17:24 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile
<me@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:56:02 GMT, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>>I don't do suits unless forced, and I don't have the slighted idea
>>>whether the suits I own two buttons or three (or even seven), but I'm
>>>somewhat taken by the claim that the jacket (=US coat) has a "Rope
>>>shoulder for stronger presence". I wonder if I need a stronger
>>>presence.
>
>> Areff has contaminated you with this (=US) convention. Americans
>> refer to the upper half of a suit as a jacket or a coat depending on
>> the context.
>
>When did I ever pronounce on this subject?

You are the one that is always using the (BrE "dirt" = AmE "dirt")
type of explanation of Things We Already Know.

> AFAIC, when speaking of men's
>business suits, "jacket" (or "suit jacket") is the standard term for the
>upper half, though "coat" may be a more formal equivalent.
>
>I do agree that the Omrud, though he be the Final Arbiter of *British*
>English Usage, is mistaken in stating that BrE "jacket" = US
>"coat"; that simply cannot be so, and I don't even speak BrE.
>
>> "Take your coat off" would mean "Take your suit jacket
>> off",
>
>Maybe, maybe not. If someone was just wearing a suit with no coat over
>it, I wouldn't expect someone to say "Take your coat off". Or I'd expect
>the suit wearer to respond "What coat? I'm not wearing a coat".
>
It's August in New Yawk, and you're with a person wearing a suit. The
person is invited to "take your coat off", and you look around for
someone wearing an overcoat?

Do you also actually feel compelled to move a chair when asked to
"pull up a chair"? Do you leave the room with the chair tucked under
your arm when invited to "take a seat"?

Do you go into MOMA looking for a jacket room if you want to check the
upper half of your suit? Do you stare at a coat rack and wonder
where you can hang your jacket up? Do you look for a jacket hangar in
a closet?

Do you ever get invited back anywhere?

>> When "jacket" is used to mean a windbreaker or windcheater, it's clear
>> by context. "It's jacket weather" means a windbreaker would be worn.
>> "It's coat weather" means an overcoat would be worn.
>
>I disagree with this to the extent that you're implying that jacket can
>*only* mean, in a non-suit context, a windbreaker. A windbreaker is but
>one of many kinds of jackets. You also have leather jackets, bomber
>jackets, jean jackets, army jackets, and lots of other jackets of various
>kinds with no standard names.

There's no such implication.

>In fact, I'd say that a windbreaker is *not* some sort of default
>conception of a jacket, because it's way too light. "Jacket weather"
>implies that you should be wearing something *heavier* than a typical
>windbreaker. I wonder, Coop, whether you're speaking here specifically as
>a Floridian.
>
>As for "coat", the same applies, though perhaps a bit less so. A coat
>need not be an overcoat. There are many other kinds of coats. I will
>grant you that an overcoat may be the best classical example of what a
>coat is. You probably haven't worn an overcoat in 20 or more years, so
>you're not qualified to speak on this subject.

Of course I have. I live here, but travel elsewhere.

>> Going back to context, "Coat and tie" and "Jacket and tie" would both
>> be understood to mean a suit or sport coat ensemble.
>
>I agree that that's what "jacket and tie" would be understood to mean. I
>wouldn't expect to hear "coat and tie", or at least I would say that "coat
>and tie" has no meaning as unambiguous as "jacket and tie".

Nonsense. "Coat and tie", and "Jacket and tie" (in quotes) draw
135,000 hits and 184,000 hits, respectively, when Googled. That
hardly rules either out.

>> In writing this, I wonder if the term is "sports coat" or "sport
>> coat". I use the both singular and the plural, and I have absolutely
>> no idea why I choose one or the other.
>
>It's "sports".
>
116,000 hits for "sports coat" and 319,000 for "sport coat" (in
quotes).

Note the conflict between title and words at:
http://www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/songs/robbins/white.html
I'm sure this is the source for your decision between the two terms.


--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Bespoke
    ... If someone was just wearing a suit with no coat over ... > It's August in New Yawk, and you're with a person wearing a suit. ... The person would more likely be invited to take his *jacket* off. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: US cell phones
    ... A jacket is part of a suit here. ... "suit jacket" is sometimes used. ... jacket" and "sports coat" are interchangeable. ... Someone might say, "My mobile phone needs ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Bespoke
    ... though "coat" may be a more formal equivalent. ... is mistaken in stating that BrE "jacket" = US ... If someone was just wearing a suit with no coat over ... "It's jacket weather" means a windbreaker would be worn. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Bespoke
    ... refer to the upper half of a suit as a jacket or a coat depending on ... "Take your coat off" would mean "Take your suit jacket ... Sports jacket and sports coat are also interchangeable. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Bespoke
    ... > refer to the upper half of a suit as a jacket or a coat depending on ... Sports jacket and sports coat are also interchangeable. ...
    (alt.usage.english)