Re: Pronunciation of "Amen"


"credoquaabsurdum" <credoquaabsurdum@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1122768413.783712.75360@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> rbaniste1@xxxxxxx wrote:
>
>> L'il Ole Urdum says Erasmus just fiddled with a Hebrew word
>> borrowed by Greek, which is true. Now it's borrowed by English
>> and is thoroughly English.
>>
>> I am sure God is not offended however we prononounce it. In
>> any case, who is to say how Aramaic or Hebrew was pronounced
>> way back then?

[gravity-reducing persiflage snipped passim]

> No, that's not what I said.
> I asserted in my earlier post that "amen" was a Greek loanword. If
> you
> look it up in the Compact Oxford, you see that its Greek root is
> attributed there to a Hebrew word that means "truth, certainly."
>
> The first of my many allowances.
>
> http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dev_dict&field-12668446=amen&branch=13842570&textsearchtype=exact&sortorder=score%2Cname
>
> In Merriam Webster's Collegiate, 11th edition, there is no mention
> of
> the Hebrew root. In Merriam-Webster's On-Line, there is.
>
> The second of my many allowances.
>
> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary (You'll have to look it up all
> by
> your lonesome on that service.)
>
> Now, I happen to disagree with both etymological opinions. I have no
> problem with the word going back to Latin, and on to Greek, but I'm
> not
> sure that it comes from a common Hebrew root. This is why.
>
> I am sitting in my study in Athens, Greece, and I have before me a
> book
> entitled _Lexico Tis Koinis Neoellinikis_ (EU conventions for
> Latinized
> spelling here) published by the Institute of Modern Greek Studies at
> the University of Salonika. By and large, this book is considered to
> be
> to the Greek language what the OED is to the English language.
> Granted,
> you'll have to take my word for it, unless you want to hit a
> university
> and expose your woeful lack of breeding to your betters.
>
> "Amen" means "oh, might it be so."
>
> Of course, the book does not say that. The actual entry is:
>
> amin: epif. efxetiko. yia kati pou efxetai o omilitis no yinei sto
> mellon.
>
> (Amen: adjective of hope, for something which the speaker wishes
> might
> happen in the future.)
>
> I'm sure that someone in this group knows enough basic modern Greek
> to
> tentatively verify that translation. If you plug it into a
> translator,
> well, you'll need the original spelling. I can't help you there, but
> I
> can lead you to the dictionary's main site.
>
> http://ins.phil.auth.gr/lexikaonline.htm

> "Amen," in Greek, has no connotations of emphatic agreement with
> someone else. It is not an ancient cognate of "uh-huh" or "hell,
> yes."
> It is, quite simple, a wish. The wish had religious overtones
> then...and no one in their right mind believes that the word is in
> common usage outside of religious or semi-religious usages.
>
> I therefore believe that the Hebrew root indicated in both Oxford
> and
> MW was put in there by scholars desperately hoping to appear
> politically correct and give the Hebrew language its proper due in
> the
> evolution of the English language. I may be wrong on this, but it
> seems
> logical.
>
> Since my Oxford Online access is down, I cannot verify Oxford's full
> etymological record on this. I've already asked Merriam-Webster,
> Inc.
> about it.
>
> As to how the word is pronounced in a Greek Orthodox church, well,
> you can watch _My Big Fat Greek Wedding_ and listen
> closely.

> Now check my earlier post for what I actually said about Erasmus.

> Unlike some in this group, I am all for Anglicizing foreign words
> and
> not putting on bull*** accents to approximate the "proper"
> pronunciation of a word. Then again, time and circumstances have
> forced
> me to master a second language in some depth, so my views on
> multilingual posers are a bit harsh. But in looking at "amen," and
> wondering how to properly pronounce something that has significantly
> changed from its original form, it is curious that in this
> discussion,
> quite a number of people have attempted to claim pride of place for
> either the one or the other of fully Anglicized pronunciations,
> neither
> of which approximate the original one.
>
> The only other alternative to these two pronunciations, brought up
> by a
> single poster, is how Muslims pronounce it in their worship. That
> pronunciation is far more historically accurate than what English
> speakers use (even if you believe that "amen" is ultimately Hebrew,
> in
> point of fact). I thought it was curious, and decided to speak up.

As far as the meaning of "amen" is concerned. I don't think anyone
would deny that it is used to mean "let it be so", among other things.
Some languages translate the word instead of borrowing it: Anglo-Saxon
used "sothlice", truly, to end prayers that I have seen.

Apart from the assurances of scholars, what convinces me of the Hebrew
origins of "amen" is its productiveness in that language. Whereas
Greek, according to your research, has it (only?) as an "adjective of
hope" (puzzling in itself -- I would have thought it some kind of
particle), it exists in Hebrew as part of a constellation of related
words, including "omen", faithfulness; "ne'eman", to be faithful,
true; "he'emin", to trust, believe in; and "amenah", truly. This last
word and other related words ("aman", "immen", hithammen") also have
meanings related to education and training. The root verb appears to
be "aman", to rear, nurse.

In an attempt to avoid accusations of multilingual posing, I will
state here that my knowlege of Hebrew is far more limited than my
interest in it, and that my interest in ancient and many foreign
languages is chiefly related to the light they can furnish to my
understanding of English. I can read a dictionary, though.
Transcriptions above are my own, and do not adequately reflect the
Hebrew spelling. If you should want to look it up, the root verb is
spelled ALEPH (qamets) MEM (pathach) NUN.

As for the pronunciation of "amen" in English, rbaniste has made the
only valid point: the choice is between the two current
pronunciations, and the way Romans or Greeks, or even the Israelites
who originated it, pronounced the word in their own languages at the
time of borrowing, while of interest, is not relevant to the English
pronunciation of an English word; still less so is its modern
pronunciation in those languages. Even for English, God doesn't rule
on the question, and neither (as you will find if you check) do we.

..



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