Re: BAd News!
- From: Bob Miller <robmx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:31:39 GMT
phil-news-nospam@xxxxxxxx wrote:
The only way that a broadcaster can use MPEG4 with ATSC is to OBSOLETE all current receivers sold since 1998. That was one of the main reasons given for not allowing COFDM that all receivers sold before 2000 would be made obsolete, all 2000 of them.On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 06:20:49 GMT Bob Miller <robmx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
| It is just bad enough to guarantee failure. Doesn't have to be that way. | Other countries do not have this problem. They are using versions of | COFDM and countries going digital now will also be using MPEG4.
ATSC does appear to be headed towards MPEG4.
The reality is that when the US decided to change the codec for the "required" free to air SD or HD program they might as well change the modulation as well as the MAIN argument for not changing is that receivers will be made obsolete and changing the codec does just that.
If you change then it would be insane not to take advantage of the improvements in modulation that have occurred since 1997. Even 8-VSB could be upgraded.
All modulations should be considered at that time.
SO saying that ATSC is heading for MPEG4 is insane. Any change would open the door to the retesting of ALL known modulations including DVB-T, ISDB-T and DMB-T from China.
So you have the inside track on the long term DTV future of all these countries? They will never deploy a substantial DTV coverage?
| That means that countries like China, Malaysia, Borneo, Mongolia, the | Ivory Coast and Russia will have far better OTA DTV than the US.
Actually not. Their OTA TV will be principly limited to urban areas and the areas served by repeaters and translators.
And what if they don't for what ever reason possibly economic? They still chose COFDM.
That has nothing to do with it but is also untrue in the most part. Mark Schubin could/can receive all analog stations in his apartment watchable with a simple antenna on the top of his TV. This was not and is not true of 8-VSB even today. The only instance in which he could match NTSC analog with 8-VSB was with an LG prototype a year ago just before LG quit building any 8-VSB receivers.
| The worst RF environment in the world, New York City has reception like | this mobile with COFDM and a single 100 Watt transmitter. This in a city | with MEGA (that is a MILLION) WATT DTV stations on the Empire State | Building that you can't receive 8 blocks away.
Can't get analog their, either.
Obviously I can't show you that because COFDM is not allowed in the US. It would be as good or better than 8-VSB as the Australian test, the Sinclair test in Baltimore and the MSTV test showed when Sinclair retested the seven sites where COFDM had failed and where 8-VSB had worked at six sites.
| This is COFDM with a 3 and 12 inch omni antenna at 100 Watts. Light in a | light bulb on a 400 ft building. Compare to Empire State Building at | 1200 or so.
Show me how that COFDM looks like over by Scranton PA.
When I lived in the NYC suburbs (NJ specificially) in the early 1980's, I watched good analog pictures from Scranton and Wilkes-Barre, so the opposite would be true the other way around, if you try.
Upon retest with a proper receiver, COFDM worked in ALL seven sites including the one site where 8-VSB had failed.
The opposite of watching in Scranton what you could receive in New York is not obvious at all. Lots of variables. Being able to watch DTV over the radio horizon is not necessarily a good thing. The over powered US analog broadcast system causes interference that is unnecessary if multipath was under control.
Having the digital broadcast system duplicate that flawed over powered and outdated system is wrong. By lowering power and using on channel repeaters you could better sculpt a stations coverage and you could modernize our system and allow the reuse of a lot of spectrum that now goes to waste.
Not true I am one of the few who actively tested and test the latest 8-VSB receivers. I do so in the hope that we will find one we can use. My ears are open unlike those of Congress, the FCC and most broadcasters. Any of them doing any testing of receivers except Sinclair?
| And in Washington DC they carried on this week with the digital | transition like there was NO problem with reception. I was at a meeting | with Chairman of the House Subcommittee Barton a few months ago and he | DID NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT.
Look in the mirror.
For a total political disaster it does not have to be half. 10 to 30% would be a disaster for anyone whose name is attached. And why have 10 to 30% failure when there is no need for it?
| I warned him that this would blow up in his face but he is only | listening to such as Motorola who shouted me down stating they had | perfect receivers that worked anywhere.
And you have tested these receivers and found they fail in half the locations?
The only difference is that being able to receive mobile is only a testament to the robustness of the signal. NOTHING else. If you can receive mobile you also have the best system for fixed reception.
| It is our spectrum, yours and mine and it could be receivable mobile and | portable on simple inexpensive receivers and simple omni antennas. It | could deliver TWICE the programming to us free and clear with MPEG4.
The needs for fixed reception and mobile reception work differently. Trying to find one method that service both will be a compromise that ends up serving neither very well.
I would love for you to explain a situation where a modulation that works mobile would not work as well as another modulation when a fixed site is tested. This should be good.
I had a standing offer to test COFDM against 8-VSB where I said that using the same power and broadcast antenna with both COFDM and 8-VSB I would let the 8-VSB folks pick any site where they could receive 8-VSB and I would drive around that site receiving COFDM mobile.
There is no PERIOD in Washington. Broadcasters have been denied multicast must carry twice and still they fight on. Multicast must carry will only die after Congress gives it to broadcasters and then the cable guys take it to the Supreme Court. Then ALL must carry will die.
| But the cable and satellite companies don't want you to have this | possibility. They want FREE OTA TO DIE. The broadcasters want multicast | must carry on cable and they want to be paid for the content they must | send for free OTA. They also do not want new competition OTA so they | have and still will delay the transition as long as possible so that the | spectrum cannot be sold to or even used after sale by new competitors.
It's going to happen in 2009, period. Maybe April at the latest.
The digital transition will be over when the last analog transmitter is turned off not before. The rumor mill already says that both 2009 dates are fictitious. That as the date set approaches broadcasters will go to the public with a new set of delay tactics chief among which will be the lack of receiver standards.
Congress will jump like a frog to get out of that boiling pot. Broadcasters will not bring the temp up slowly. They will as one feign indignation that receivers standards are not set or met.
The delay could go on for a long time. After all 2006 was set in stone years ago.
Yes it is DTV but many early adopters still believe it is HDTV. The HDTV label is what was pasted all over this transition and most early adopters bought it.
| You are being screwed and early adopters have been duped into being | allies with these crooks with the HDTV label.
It's DTV.
You will see services that compete directly with 8-VSB on channels above 51 and they will work better using COFDM than 8-VSB does for both fixed and mobile.
| The one saving grace is that foreign countries and especially foreign | broadcasters fought back against the pressure from the US and went with | their own test and rejected 8-VSB. Now their success is beginning to and | will undermine the 8-VSB modulation BS here in the US big time.
8-VSB is the better method for the type of usage intended, which is fixed to homes, not mobile. Other services specifically for mobile will be using what works best for that.
Also simply not true and NTSC was both portable, mobile and fixed. It did not work well at any of them but that is no reason to give up mobile and portable. That is another issue that broadcasters will feign surprise at at the last moment.
"Where is mobile reception? My God we can't let this transition happen. We were promised mobile reception by the 8-VSB crowd way back in 2001." broadcasters will say. "They said they would have it within six months. That 8-VSB will work mobile as well as COFDM. That was after they said they had it in 1999."
Broadcasters will also say "Won't have it in 2009 either. And the broadcasters can use that tool at the last minute too. Hey US public the government wants to take your analog away and do a digital that doesn't work fixed, mobile or portable. they haven't set receiver standards and they have ignored the fact that the rest of the world has a working DTV system that works mobile and portable and fixed."
They are good at this. They are broadcasters and they can tell the story well when it suits them.
Expect it about November of 2008. A major campaign. And after the delay we will have switched to or allowed COFDM of some sort with a deadline of 2012. By which time, because it will be in their interest, all broadcasters will have switched to COFDM and will welcome the end of analog.
Bob Miller
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