Re: Fritzl


"Amy Guskin" <aisling@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C4447CC002FB138CF0407648@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Sun, 4 May 2008 23:51:56 -0400, AusWendy wrote
(in article <481e8422$0$88995$c30e37c6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>):

Yes dreadful disgusting conditions with out medical assistance or even
another female to comfort her. <<

I hate to quibble with any expression of compassion for this woman, but
this
statement makes me want to point out two things:

1) Why "another female"? Why not "another person"? One evil man does
not
make all men evil.

AND I NEVER SAID IT DID - I didn't say "another female" because I feel that
men are inferior etc etc.

Don't include me in the male vs female debate,<<

Er... Male vs. female debate? You do realize that I'm a woman, right?
This
has nothing to do with a debate; it's simply a fact. I had a horrible
first
husband who did unspeakable things, but I didn't take it out on all men.
And
I married again.

Same here; not that it is even remotely related to what we are discussing.

And if I'd been imprisoned by a rapist for 'x' number of
years, it'd be my _husband_ I'd be wishing >for,

Well that's a very different situation isn't it? From that scenario you
would have had to escape from the rapist, had the opportunity to live a
normal life, met your husband and then become pregnant.

Very different and thinking of, not "another
female." I'm just making a point that I'm sure >Elisabeth would have
liked
having _any_ other decent human being to >comfort her, despite your
insistence
that she'd only have wanted "another female."

Ahhh see there you go making assumptions, I am not "insisting" that
Elisabeth would have "only" wanted a "female". I am purely explaining my
reasoning for THINKING that a woman who had been through child birth would
have been of comfort to her. I suppose the point is, my subsequent posts
were to illustrate the fact that I didn't CHOOSE a female over a male for
any "sinister reason" just that IMO a woman who had been through child birth
would be more comfort and have more experience. It has nothing to do with
male vs female.

AND IMHO with the way that Elisabeth had been treated - cut off from any
semblence of a normal life, she would have been scared when she went into
labour and someone there who could say to her "I've been through it and its
worth it blah blah etc" would have been of great comfort to her.

I ONLY meant someone that had
been through childbirth and could explain to Elisabeth that everything
that
was happening to her was perfectly natural. I doubt she had much
information regarding what would happen during labour. To make it
perfectly
clear I will rephrase it to "without medical assistance or the presence
of a
woman who had been through labour and could reassure her that everything
was
proceeding normally". <<

So you don't think any men would be able to tell her what to expect during
pregnancy or labor? How about male obstetricians, male gynecologists, or
any
man whose wife has had a baby and who has >read a few books?

I was thinking more along the lines of "I've been through it and it's bad at
the time but believe me you will forget all about it". Someone who could
share their experiences with her.

2) Doesn't her 19-year old daughter, Kerstin, count as "another female"?

NO she doesn't - Kerstin could hardly have been at her own birth to
reassure
her mother that everthing was going ok. <<

Well, I thought you just meant the conditions in general -- not
specifically
during the births.

WELL you should read what is written/typed. We were expressly talking about
birth QUOTE "She birthed seven children in unimaginable circumstances."
(From Ruthless' original post) and my reply....
"Yes dreadful disgusting conditions with out medical assistance or even
another female to comfort her."

But yes, obviously Kerstin couldn't have attended her own
birth.

A first labour for any woman is difficult enough, I imagined that
Elisabeth
would have been scared to death. She would have been in great pain,
probably not aware that what was happening to her body was supposed to
happen and perhaps even thinking she was going to die. <<

Really? As a 22-year old in 1988? I'm very close to her age, and if I
were
pregnant and forced to give birth in a cave somewhere, I'd have known
_exactly_ what was happening to me, and not thought I was going to die.

Well that's good. I was very educated about child birth but my first labour
still took me by surprise. At the pushing stage I honestly felt that my
body was going to split in 2 and I was amazed by the intensity of the pain.

By all accounts, she went to good schools and was educated until the time
of her
imprisonment; why would you think she was like some woman out of "Clan of
the
Cave Bear" or whatever?

Well perhaps her behaviour may have changed with the dreadful inhumane
circumstances she was living under - perhaps due to the disgusting situation
she found herself in - locked away, imprisoned, no contact with anyone
except her father who rapes her, pregnant to said father, she may have not
been rational enough to think to herself "5 years ago (or however long ago)
I had a class about labour at school and it's all normal, I won't worry".
Perhaps she thought to herself "*** I'm in a cellar with no doctor, no
help, what happens if something goes wrong? Aahh it doesn't matter - I can
vaguely remember a sex ed class about it when I was at school, everything is
hunky dory".

Also I am not certain of the depth of sex education in Austria in the
1980's. Did they cover childbirth/labour? I had my first child in the
1980's and I am a similar age to Elisabeth and I know labour etc wasn't
covered in any classes held in my school/state etc. The information I got
about child birth was from friends, relatives, prenatal classes and my
doctor. Elisabeth did not have those resources available to her. Even
though I read books, educated myself and went to classes the impact of my
first labour still amazed me as did the pain etc.

The presence of another FEMALE who had been through childbirth would
have
IMO been of major assistance to Elisabeth. <<

I'll have to respectfully disagree; I think that any normal, caring human
being would have been of major assistance to >Elisabeth.
women who have had children are rather >vehemently 'breederist,' but let's
remember that men have something to >do with children >being born, too.

NO KIDDING I never at any time said that they didn't.

AND that a woman who hasn't been through >childbirth might be somewhat
less than
useless, as well.

That's why I further qualified my response to read "To make it perfectly
clear I will rephrase it to without medical assistance or the presence of a
woman who had been through labour and could reassure her that everything was
proceeding normally".

Aus Wendy



Amy
--
"In my line of work you gotta keep repeating things over and over and over
again for the truth to sink in, to kinda catapult the propaganda." - George
W. Bush, May 24, 2005


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