Re: Josef Fritzl Raped Daughter in Front of Children
- From: Poe <haunted@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 16:23:44 -0400
Bill Shroyer wrote:
On Sat, 03 May 2008 11:52:20 -0400, Poe <haunted@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
<snip>
Clearly there will be significant damage to everyone who lived in the cellar - developmental, emotional, psychological and physical. What I have been wondering about is what can be reversed, or at least corrected to a degree. For instance, the boys communicating with grunting sounds. How difficult will it be to teach them to speak?
I'm no professional, but have had some exposure to realities such as
this and so while I think I know a thing or two, just bear that in
mind.
That said, as I understand it, they already know how, it's just not
natural for them. The articles mentioned that if they wanted to say
something so that others could understand them, they had to focus, and
it seemed to be difficult for them - this tells me they already can
communicate in the manner most of us are accustomed, but they're just
not used to it. I think all they'll need to become better at it is
practice.
As an adult I find learning another language difficult.
I'm lucky in that regard, I can pick up new languages with very little
difficulty. I plan on trying to learn as many different languages as I
can during the course of my life in the hopes of maintaining at least
a modicum of mental flexibility.
Will it be like that, or nearly impossible, because they'd be starting from a basis of possibly only a few words?
They know language from watching television - it's not the best
teacher, but they definitely know more than just a few words. The two
surviving children from the cellar (the oldest isn't expected to
survive at this point) are still young enough that they should be able
to develop fairly well in that regard if they choose to. Their
vocabulary is probably pretty decent, all things considered, they just
have never had to use it that often. Their own language, for their own
uncomplicated little world, was sufficient for them.
And walking - some of them reportedly crawled around. For whatever reason, if that's true, how hard would it be to teach an adult to walk? Would their bones be too weak to bear their weight at this point, because of lacking nutrition and exercise up until now?
I know a little less about this part of it, but some just the same.
They all can walk, but one of them, the youngest, prefers to crawl.
The older of them walk a bit stooped since only the children could
stand upright the whole way. That condition will probably go away in
time as they get used to stretching their limbs and open spaces
(except maybe for Elizabeth, since she is middle-aged now).
What sort of mental damage does solitary confinement do? I have heard prisoners who've endured it say that one goes crazy, starts to hallucinate, etc. In her first 5 years she was alone, and then the babies. What sort of person might she have been by the time the babies came about, and would that be a reason she didn't teach them some basic skills like walking and talking (the reason being that she was so off her rocker by that point that even feeding them might have been difficult)?
She wasn't that far-off - She taught them what she could, but it takes
a lot more than one person alone in a dark room and no other
meaningful contact with the outside world to teach anything
effectively. She didn't know how to teach, even if she knew the
language and math and things of that nature - teaching is a skill unto
itself, she tried to convey what she could but was limited in how
effective she could be. I suppose she could've forbade them from
speaking in their own animalistic sounds, but what would be the point
of that? For all she knew, her father was going to let them all die in
that dungeon. Disciplining her children might have seemed a cruelty
she couldn't foist upon them, especially if there seemed no hope.
Just speculation on my part, of course.
I'd be interested in opinions of anyone familiar with human development when working with a variant situation like this.
Seen all sorts of situations, including a woman I worked with who was
in the same situation - minus any kids of her own. In her fifties by
the time I met her, her father kept her chained in the basement from
childhood on to some point in her adulthood for his enjoyment and that
of some of his acquaintances (I never did learn when, exactly, she
came to be liberated from that life - early adulthood or later
adulthood, but probably in her late twenties from things I've heard
her say & knowing when her father died). He probably got paid for it,
too. Fortunately she never had any children, at least not that we'd
heard of (if she did, they likely didn't survive or weren't allowed to
survive far beyond birth). I met her through working as a houseparent
for mentally retarded adults for 4 years, and know what I know from
that work as well as my own independent study due to my own strong
interest in the subject.
Aside from talking non-stop even while asleep, she was also prone to
self-injurious behavior, but those outbursts were very sporadic, rare
& unpredictable. She also occasionally would be prone to violent
psychotic thinking (we'd all be aware of it since she was unable to
stop talking, anything running through her mind at the moment came
right out), and while I've never witnessed it she occasionally acted
out violently against people when going through those spells. But like
the self-injurious behavior, it was rare & unpredictable.
I've thought a lot about her since this story broke. It's similar
because of being imprisoned for years in a basement by her father for
sex, but different because Elisabeth was 18 before being confined,
whereas this woman was much, much younger (before she was even 10, as
I recall). Elisabeth's children probably have more in common with this
woman than Elisabeth, herself, as Elisabeth, at least, had formative
years during which at least marginally-normal social skills could be
acquired.
It's a horrible thing to see a mind in its aging years, having been
blasted to oblivion by such treatment and incapable of ever finding
its way back. I think Elisabeth's kids stand a chance, primarily
because they got to at least -see- quasi-normal socialization in
action on the television (for as "normal" as that ever is, I mean).
They have some idea as to what it is and how "normal" people often act
or are expected to act, even if they've never been expected to behave
that way in the past. And from what I can tell, they weren't sexually
abused, themselves. As long as that's the case, their chances improve,
imo.
This is all very interesting. Thanks for the analysis, I know it is just opinion based on what you've learned over time (not a professional opinion) but there is a lot here to chew on with this story and the effects on the victims. You opinions are worthwhile in helping process this mess in my mind!
.
- References:
- Josef Fritzl Raped Daughter in Front of Children
- From: earthage
- Re: Josef Fritzl Raped Daughter in Front of Children
- From: Poe
- Re: Josef Fritzl Raped Daughter in Front of Children
- From: Bill Shroyer
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