Re: 'John Mark Karr as much killed JonBenet Ramsey as Mickey Mouse did'...

"Kris Baker" wrote:

EnEss wrote:
The Ramseys seemed to have strange ideas about a few
things, but I never saw a scrap of evidence to suggest they were
mentally disturbed, enough so to do such insane and horrendous
things.
<snip>
I can believe that a parent who gives all appearances of being a good
parent
could kill his or her child. I can believe a parent in a moment of panic
could make the misjudgment of trying to cover up an accidental death, or
a
death resulting from overly aggressive physical discipline (basically,
the
same as an accidental death) by lying about it and making up a cover
story--even hiding the body and telling police there was a kidnapping.
We
all know it's happened.

What I can't accept is all the rest of it...the ransom note AND staging
a
molestation and murder and in the most gruesome and brutal fashion. This
is
just way, way, way too much, <snip>
And from where I see it, as whacko as the intruder theory seems--and I
admit
it's hard to buy because it's so bizarre and totally atypical of
intruder
abductions and murders--the idea either of the parents killed their
daughter
for any reason and then covered it up w/ all this insane stuff is just
as or
even more unbelievable.

And this is where we vary, slightly, on our ideas, NS.

No one wants to believe that a good mother can kill her child - but we
have to take the emotion out of our opinions. Anyone who could have done
this *on purpose*, had a killer mentality. I don't think it happened on
purpose.

I got that. I know that 99% of the pro-Ramseys-are-the-killers camp don't
think the child was murdered deliberately by either parent--that it resulted
out of an accident. And I just went over all that. I have said even as an
accident, it doesn't make sense. This is not the way any parent covers up an
accidental death of a child. But I'll go over it all again in reply to your
specific points.

The one glaring issue for many of us is that a six-year-old child was
still wetting her pants. That's indicative of something.... but I don't
know what.

Why do you say you "don't know what"? It sounds like you have something
specific in mind w/ that comment. I should point out a couple of things.
First, none of us know how much the girl was actually wetting her bed. It
may have been only a very occasional thing. There's no evidence it happened
the night of her murder.

Second, children do have the occasional accident. Hell, so do some adults.
An occasional accident even in a 6-year-old is not a window into an
underlying severely dysfunctional home environment. That is what I'm
assuming you were getting at in your above sentence.

I believe there was an accident shove (most likely in the bathroom, while
changing JBR's peed-on clothing after a harried night and before an early
morning wake-up call). She wanted to put on her nightgown, and you want
her to be half-ready for the morning, so you redress her. Maybe there
were sleeping pills invoved, and a not-quite-awake adult.

I know something about sleeping pills as I use one occasionally to help me
sleep. Once you take one, you're done for the night. You're not going to be
changing a child into other clothes, fixing her a late-night snack, and most
certainly not staying up all night playing out a bizarre murder mystery
psycho drama.

Whether JBR was shoved or slipped in the bath, really doesn't matter.

She says her head hurts, but she seems OK. She wants her nightgown on,
you want her half-dressed and ready to catch the morning flight. You
both go down the spiral stairs (maybe you carry her). She catches some
tinsel in her hair.

You take her down to the dining room. She seems OK, with a headache...and
you get out a bowl and feed her some pineapple. But she's not OK, and
she "dies" in front of you.

Several things:

1) The blow to the head JBR rec'd. could not have come from hitting her head
against anything in a fall (unless maybe she fell out of her bedroom window
or off the roof of the house, etc.). A child hitting her head against an
object in the room, like a piece of furniture or a tub, sink or toilet would
not result in the severe skull fracture she had. That could only result from
a hard, vicious, mighty blow to the head from a blunt object, like a club.

2) The blow to the head would've knocked JBR out unconscious,
immediately...or within seconds. And she'd be out cold until she slipped
into a coma until death came. The ME said the head injury alone would've
been fatal. She would've been unconcsious until she died.

3) If by some weird chance she was still awake after the head injury, no way
would she have eaten a thing. No way could she be coerced into eating
anything. No one w/ a severe head injury feels like eating afterwards. It's
much more common for the person to become extremely nauseated and maybe
begin to vomit. Patsy would not have been able to get any pineapple into her
child if the scneario you paint had happened.

4) The autopsy report said the pineapple was partially digested--probably
was consumed within a few hours of her murder. After a severe blow to the
head where the person goes into a coma approaching death, the metabollic
process slows to a near stop. In order for that pineapple to have been as
digested as it was, it had to have been consumed at the very least, a few
hours before the blow to the head was rec'd IMO. I'm not a doctor or a
forensic expert, of course...but I do have some background in head injury.

That child could not have eaten anything once she rec'd the blow to the
head.

Oh, God. What to do? do you take her back upstairs? You can't. You
decide to take her to the furthest-away part of the house, and decide what
to do next. You go back upstairs.

You drink some iced tea,

Really? Iced tea? You think? You mean to account for the tea bag and the
glass found in the kitchen, or on the table or wherever it was?

Didn't Patsy have any of those International Foods flavored coffees
available to savor one of those "special moments" in life? What a shame.
; )

If I was in that situation, I can tell you I wouldn't sit down to drink iced
tea to think things over. If I needed any drink to mull things over, I'd go
for the hard stuff. Iced tea wouldn't cut it. It would have to be whiskey or
vodka, and a good belt of it too.

and go back downstairs and talk to your "dead" daughter. Oh, my God.
She's not quite dead - and you don't know what to do, except find a way to
have her die. You can't suddenly yell for John or call 911. You know
you did too much when you took her from the bathroom.

This is all quite ridiculous. If the child died on you, after falling and
hitting her head--say, in the bathroom where you were cleaning her up--you
wouldn't take her down into the basement or do any of the other stuff. You'd
get your husband, tell him the child slipped in the bathroom while she was
washing, you thought she was OK at first, but then she passed out and you
can't wake her. The husband would get up to see, he'd see the child was
badly hurt and one of you would call an ambulance (or drive her to the ER).
You'd tell the paramedics, the ER physicians, the police if they were called
and anyone else who asked what you told your husband--because it's the
truth. Maybe you'd leave out the part about how she fell because you changed
her roughly, causing her to lose balance, etc., or if you smacked her in a
moment of impatience and she fell over...you might leave out that part.
You're not going to worry about what she might say when she regains
consciousness--IF she can even be saved.

There's just no reason on the good green earth to do anything different. No
one other than someone completely sick and demented and delusional would
think "Oh she's almost dead anyway, so I better finish the job. No one will
believe me if I say it was an accident. I'll hide her in the basement. OK,
now what? I know, I'll take a rope and part of this paint brush and make a
garotte and strangle the few ounces of life left in her out of her. There.
Now what? Oh I know! I'll make it look like she's molested. I'll just take
the other part of this broken paint brush and jab it in her vagina. There!
What next? I don't know...still not enough. I got to make this look like a
*really* bad man, so I'll write a ransom note. No one will ever think to
compare the hand-writing. The police will be out looking for the kidnapper
and for the girl. As soon as the coast is clear, I'll put the body in the
car and drive it out into the country and look for a secluded place to bury
her where no one will ever know. Yeah, there's the ticket!"

No one within light years of their right mind would do anything other than
call paramedics and say the child slipped in the bathroom, was OK for a
short time, then passed out and could not be awakened. Even my husband's ex
wife who's about the craziest woman I've ever seen would do the stuff you
suggest, I don't think. And Patsy Ramsey was 1,000x saner than her.

You decide that "a really bad man came into the house" and did this.

You're not very good at it so you use a rope and a piece of wood to twist
it. It looks really convoluted. You do it slowly, because you're
crying and you don't have much strength.

Everything I've read about the garotte says a complex series of knots were
used that required someone w/ knowledge of creating such a device. It did
not sound like something thrown together by a person in a state of
exhaustion or hysteria who had never made something like this before.

Maybe you quietly walk out of the house and and dump some leftover
evidence in a neighbor's trash.

Oh you mean to account for what happened to the missing items, like the
practice ransom note pages and the duct tape roll, and maybe the leftover
rope?

Maybe you intended to take your daughter somewhere, and realized you
couldn't carry her far and that you couldn't sneak the car out of the
garage. You had to leave her where she was.

In your addled state, you decide you need to prove (even more) that this
was a *very bad man*. Ransom note! In your fog, you can't decide if
you are one person or several. Just that you are part of a small foreign
faction. (Unfortunately, you forget that writing in foreign words would
have been more convincing). This is hard. You have to start over.
In your fog, you write too much and too long.

Nothing makes sense now, but in your addled mind, you don't notice.

So, in your scenario, John Ramsey had no idea of any of this? But you
believe he was clued in at some point? Or are you one who thinks it's an
accident how he found the body and seemed, according to Fleet White, to go
right to it as though he knew it was there beforehand?

And btw...that "small foreign faction" business. I agree that was almost
certainly a lie. But that only means whoever wrote the ransom note was being
deliberately misleading about who he/she/they were. Is it so unthinkable
that a kidnapper and murder would lie or be deliberately elusive as to
his/her identity?

You're not a bad person. You didn't kill your daughter.

What you forgot was that an accident would never have been noticed, and
your daughter may have lived. But in your fear of discovery, you
actually ended up killing her.

Anyway, that's what I remember of my "insider did it" theory that I posted
years ago. I wish I could find it. John Karr's "It was an accident"
sent chills up my spine.

It's chilling anyway, no matter who you might believe is behind this.

I didn't see your previously posted theory (I don't think)--I've only been
in this NG since the Elizabeth Smart abduction. But you don't need to try to
find it. I get your drift. I do thank you for posting it though--I'm going
to save a copy to myself for my husband to see. He's asked me how do people
who think either of the Ramseys are responsible account for all the things
that don't make any sense in that scenario, so now I have something to show
him. I have to say, the scenario you outline here strikes me as harder to
buy and more far-fetched than even the intruder theory, which I have gone on
record as admitting is quite hard to believe.

But given that it has to be one or the other, my inclination is to go w/ the
explanation that seems less ludicrous than the other. Kind of like what I do
to vote in a presidential election.

NS
(add sbc before global to email)


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