Re: Titular Duke of Athens (olim: Juan Carlos - Duke of Athens?)


Chris Hoess a écrit :

On 2006-08-18, pierre_aronax@xxxxxxxxxxx <pierre_aronax@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Chris Hoess a écrit :

On 2006-08-18, Frank Johansen <frank_harald.johansen2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Well, I don't think the succession rules to the title "Duke of Athens"
were particularty clear. However, if you start here
<http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00026909&tree=LEO>
and apply male-preffered primogeniture (á la Spaina and the UK), you
seem to end up with Infanta Alicia, Dowager Duchess of Calabria...

I think Jean d'Enghien, Count of Castro and Lecce, may have been the elder
brother of Louis, Count of Conversano and Brienne. The trees above omit
two of the elder brothers: Walter (d. v.p.), and Sohier (d. 1364, issue
extinct 1381). I may actually have notes on this somewhere; I'll look.

But Louis actually claimed Athens, and it was coherent with the rule of
succession which seem to have been those of the Dukedom of Athens (as
close as possible, and on the same degree male preferred to female).

Alice/Alix was the elder daughter, then?

Yes: she was the elder daughter of Guy I de La Roche. Nevertheless in
1308 the son of her younger sister was preferred to her daughter Echive
as Duke of Athens, precisely because he was a man. Echive sent a
malediction on her cousin, which quickly took effect as you know. The
question is if it applies to all descendants or only to claimants in
female line (so a grandson by a son will be preferred to a sister
despite the discrepancy of degree). For the pleasure of the game, we
will admit it applies in all cases.

That seems to me the only way of
making this deduction.

So from Louis, by these rules, we get:
*Marguerite d'Enghien, eldest daughter
*Pierre de Luxembourg, Comte de St-Pol (d. 1433), son
*Louis de Luxembourg, Comte de St-Pol (d. 1475), son
*Pierre de Luxembourg, Comte de St-Pol (d. 1482), son
*Marie de Luxembourg, Comtesse de St-Pol (d. 1547), daughter [who, though
female, would be one degree closer than his brother Antoine, who in fact
received Brienne]

You mean probably uncle and not brother (she can not have bypassed a
brother). Yes, I think it would work like that.

*Cardinal Louis de Vendome (d. 1557), son [closer than his nephew Antoine, Duc
de Vendome; I believe I depart from you here]

It all depends if the succession prefers the closest degree of
relationship of the right of representation. The case of Alice tends to
prove representation was not allowed (otherwise, Echive would have been
preferred to Gautier, as representing her mother's rights). So you are
probably right.

*Antoinette de Vendome (d. 1583), sister [see above]

Although they were male relatives, they were all indeed in a more
distant degree of relationship to Louis.

*Henri, Duc de Guise (d. 1588), grandson

No, Renée, daughter of Antoinette, was still alive in 1583, and died
only in 1602. At the time her closest male relative was Charles of
Lorraine, duke of Mayenne (+ 1611), closest than his nephew Charles,
Duke of Guise (son of Henri + 1588). So we should have:

*Charles of Lorraine, duke of Mayenne (+ 1611)
*Henri of Lorraine, Duke of Aiguillon (+ 1621), son
*Renée [II] of Lorraine (wife of Mario Sforza, Duke of Ognano] (+
1638) sister (clother than the Duke of Mantua, a mere nephew)
*Louis Sforza-Conti, Duke of Ognano, d.w.p. 1685

Here it becomes complicated and so there is a big probability of error.
The closest relatives would have been the descendants of Catherine de
Lorraine (+ 1618), sister of Renée [II]. Of her children, all were
dead in 1685 (Anna Gonzaga missed by one year the oportunity to become
virtual Duchess of Athens), so we have to look at the grandchildren:
the closest according to the rules we have edicted still alive in 1685
seems to me Eleonora of Gonzaga, wife of Emperor Ferdinand III:

*Eleonora of Gonzaga (+ 1686)
*Archduchess Eleonora Maria Josepha (+ 1697) daughter
*Leopold Joseph, Duke of Lorraine (+ 1729) son (and back to the house
of Lorraine)
*Francis I, Emperor of the Romans (+ 1765), son
*Leopold II, Emperor of the Romans (+ 1792), son
*Francis II/I, Emperor of the Romans, then of Austria (+ 1835), son
*Ferdinand I, Emperor of Austria (+ 1875), son
*Archduke Francis of Austria (+ 1878), brother [at least a crown he
would not have renounced]
*Francis Joseph, Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary (+ 1916), son
*Archduchess Gisela of Austria (+ 1932), daughter (rather than her
nieces, daughter of his defunct brother, who were more distant by a
degree)
*Prince George of Bavaria (+ 1943), son
*Franz Prinz von Bayern (+ 1999), son
[here we must search for the closest male relative in collateral line.
If I'm not wrong it is:]
*Umberto Poletti Galimberti de Assandri [he seems to be the more
qualified between the great grandchildren of Archduchess Gisela, no
grandchildren being still alive in 1999]

Before we suggest to this gentleman to push his claim on the Dukedoms
of Athens and Thebes, it is nevertheless more prudent to carefully
check the line at each generation in search of the unforgettable
missing little brother...

Following absolute proximity of blood is tricky, so it would not surprise me if
there was a mistake in the above.

That's were is the fun of the game, isn't it? ;)

Pierre

.

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