Re: Last Coronations (Was :THE PRISONER OF ZENDA)


CJ Buyers a écrit :

pierre_aronax@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
CJ Buyers a écrit :

pierre_aronax@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
CJ Buyers a écrit :

pierre_aronax@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
CJ Buyers a écrit :

Graham Truesdale wrote:


*Luxembourg Henri 2000 (enthronement)
PA - Why counting the enthronement as a coronation for Luxembourg, but
not for Belgium or Netherlands?

Why Brazil?

If Brazil, why not Mexico, Haiti, Nepal or Tonga?

Indeed, why not? It was obvious we were talking about a Christian kind
of coronation so Nepal can not qualify but Brazil, Mexico and Haiti do.

The post I was responding to included Albania, whose only king was a
Muslim.

I don't know for Tonga: what kind of ritual is involved exactly?

A coronation, of course. Someone places a crown on someone else's head.

Thanks for the broad definition. In Christian European monarchies and
in those which were inspired from them, the first "someone" was (with,
I know, some exceptions) generally one or more prelates (or at least
prelates were involved) or a religious figure. The coronation was often
(although, I know, not necessarily) joined with an anointment, which
was a liturgical act, or a benediction. In any case, the ceremony was
performed in a Christian place of worship (a cathedral for example) and
priers and other kind of Christian rituals were involved in that
ceremony.
What I asked about Tonga's coronation, as was implied by the context of
the discussion, was if it is a ceremony of that kind or only a
coronation in the broader sense (which would applies equally to Nepal
for example).

As far as I am concerned a coronation is a sacred act involving
religious ritual and involving clergy. The actual crowning itself,
and/or anointing, and similar ceremonies. The inclusion of Nepal and
Tonga accord with that understanding.

As far as the Prisoner of Zenda is concerned it is a Christian ceremony
which has its historical routes in Europe although it can have been
adopted in other places (like Brazil for example). Nepal does not
accord with that understanding. I was interested to know if Tonga does.
Somebody else knows more?

As I said, I was replying to someone who had included Albania. Last
time I looked, it was in Europe but largely Muslim. As I also said, its
only King was a Muslim.

That there is a European christian tradition does not mean there can
not be other European traditions. Nevertheless, of what tradition the
European coronations of the Zenda-kind are part seems outside
discussion.
The king of the Albanians was not crowned anyway (although he was the
only king of the Albanians he was not the only king to rule Albania
since after his expulsion the King of Italy added "King of Albania" to
his titles. The medieval kingdom of Albania had no king but a lord of
the Kingdom, rather theoretical anyway).

I do not quite grasp what you are getting at about Tonga.

Quite simple: I don't see what is your problem here. To say it again
with other words: is the Tongan coronation a coronation ritual moulded
on the European Christian tradition of coronations (as was Brazil
coronations for example), or is it an other kind of ceremony, which
happens to include a crowning but which is the result of an other
tradition (like Nepal) or of a desacralisation of the European
tradition (like Centrafrica)?

I have said
already that the country is close to 100% Christian, that Christian
clergy are invloved in the coronation,

What role does it play exactly? Is the crowning of the king actually
performed by one or more members of that clergy?

and that the coronation is a
religious ritual.

How precisely is it a Christian ritual? If it is, what was the Western
model used?

Quite frankly, it is a little hard to see this emphasis on Europe has
to do with anything. A good part of the coronation ritual, anointing
with sacred oil and so on, comes straight from the Middle East. As,
dare I say, Christianity itself!

Of course; Christianity was an Oriental religion at its birth, we all
know that. However, do you know any example of anointment in our era
which took place in the Middle East and was not inspired by the
European model? As far as I can say, the first anointed Christian kings
were Spanish Goth. And of course the kind of ceremonies performed in a
cathedral with jewellery crowns, ermine mantels, bishops in full
paraphernalia etc. mimicked in the Prisoner of Zenda was in its
conception typical of Christian Europe, although it has been exported
elsewhere.

Pierre

.

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