Re: Foreign Titles in the UK


<heydel@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1151184048.157043.260920@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

George Lucki wrote:
"Francois R. Velde" <velde@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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In medio alt.talk.royalty aperuit George Lucki
<georgelucki@xxxxxxxxxxx>
os suum:
Whitehall, 23 May, 1918.
The KING has been graciously pleased to grant His Royal Licence and
Authority
that John. Frederick Foley de Rutzen, Baron de Rutzen, and the heirs
male
of his
body as and when they shall succeed to the said title of Baron de
Rutzen,
conferred upon Augustus, Baron Von Rutzen, by Wladislaus IV, King of
Poland, as
set forth on the 26th day of December, 1657, in the manifesto of the
Land
Tribunal of the Principality of Samogicia.....etc.


This seems to be an unusual way for a King of Poland to confer a
title
of nobility. Was this a common practice?

[...]

In any case this is for me, at this point, something I would like to
find
out more about and I'm wondering if the Samogitian document is
available
in
some way. If I can find out more I'll return to this thread.

The assumption that the title is genuine may not be a safe one.


Absolutely true.
Konarski notes two examples of false titles that passed muster - the
first
with the College of Arms after WW II for a Count Chebda de Cienie Cienski

This was my uncle's cousin (the surname is usually abbreviated to
Cienski). The gentleman in question moved to Kent after the Second
World War and in the 1950s managed to convince Chester Herald to
recognise his right to the (completely fictitious) "ancient Piast title
of 'Count'".

Rafal,
You are right about the title. Thank you for sharing that anecdote. I hadn't
realized you were related. Their claim was undoubtedly based upon mediaeval
references to 'comes' which translates as 'count', the critical difference
was that comes referred to individuals who held a position at court, was
more like an office than a title, and was not hereditary. In Poland pre-1939
there was a small 'genealogic-heraldic industry' around obtaining such
certifications, for example from Spanish Cronistas. There are quite a number
of Polish families who had assumed a comital title of this basis. Konarski
in his book "On heraldry and heraldic snobbery" describes this phenomenon
and provides a partial list of psuedo-titled families (of about the same
number as legitimately titled ones).

In 1303 a comes Boguslaw and his nephew Wlostek appear in records having
mortgaged their estate the village of Lelewo and part of Cienie to the
Archbishop of Gniezno. Wlostek died without issue and his sister (and heir)
along with her children swore to leave it in the Church's possession for 20
years for the sake of Wlostek's soul.This is the only reference to a comes
in a de Cienie or Cienski family I can find. Boniecki lists these seperately
from the Cienski (arms Pomian) family from which your uncle's cousins
descend. It is likely that but for a gap in the records this may be the same
family.

Chester Herald also signed the family's genealogical chart
-- the chart again according each member of the family the "Piast
title". I have a copy of this attractive chart in my files in Canada.
It is perhaps worth noting that, although untitled, the family was
possessed of an ancient pedigree (through which they were related to
most of Poland's greatest houses); consequently, following the loss of
property and estates in the Second World War, this particular member
clearly believed he needed to demonstrate his status in the UK through
the acquisition of a title. Whilst a couple of his cousins shared this
view, no current members of the family have ever used a title.

This family is of undoubtedly of old nobility and of course no title was
necessary to demonstrate their status, but this isn't by any means the first
time that a polish noble relocated to a country where titles go hand in hand
with status has taken on the use of a title.


The Chester Herald in question, James Frere, was himself no stranger to
the titular/chivalric underworld. A knight of the legitimate SMOM he
resigned in 1967 and took up company with various dubious associations.
As late as the 1980s he was a "Knight Grand Cross and Clairvaux King of
Arms, Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem", "Mountjoy
King of Arms and Judge-at-Arms, International College of Arms of
Noblesse" and "Grand Master of Ceremonies, Supreme Military Order of
the Temple of Jerusalem". He died in 1994.

He sounds like he was 'quite the character'.
Kind regards,
George Lucki


.

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