Re: OT - Proud to be an American?

On Apr 1, 4:24 pm, "Jef." <jefo...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hey, AS3-- and anyone still following this thread:

If this seems a bit disjointed, it's because I wrote it in 2 or 3 goes,
between breakfast and lunch.
Apologies if the flow isn't terrifically smooth. The essence of my reasoning
is here, for anyone with time and inclination enough to wade through it.
It's very long, and filled with Dreadful Liberal Drivel, so the easily
provoked might want to find something else to do...

------------------------------------

Here you go, Calvin--

Reiver wrote:
...What were you ashamed of exactly? Getting attacked by terrorists?

Your demonstrated capacity for reasonable discourse is sometimes marred by
this inflammatory, rhetorical folly, Calvin.
C'mon-- it's really not necessary to toss this sort of cheap, poisoned bait
out.
You're still angry at me just for expressing my opinion? Wow.

...the steroid
injections in my neck wore off a few days ago and I'm waiting to have
my nerves frozen (hard decision...permanent). I have a constant
severe headache and can discuss further at a future time when I can
think a little more clearly. Sorry I took that out on you, but I still
don't understand
how you have been ashamed to be an American for 6 years now.

Aha! O.K., then.
Well, since you asked...

I'll extend you the simple courtesy of taking you at your word, and try and
give you a civil explanation, then.
I should perhaps back up a half step and qualify my statement:
I'm not necessarily ashamed of *being* an American-- simply by birth, act
of God and geographical coincidence-- I love my country and wouldn't want to
live anywhere else, necessarily-- though, come to think of it, *just* based
on physical beauty, Tahiti and Ireland are both pretty damned
appealing...(!)

That old "America: love it or leave it" horse*** is every bit as ridiculous
now as it was in the 60's.
Never, ever question things? Blindly accept anything and everything your
government shoves your way or you can just piss off?
I don't think so. No intelligent human can live that way. Our country's very
formation was based on that tenet.
Again-- it's the ability to separate love of country/honor of service from a
disgustingly flawed and corrupt leadership that makes me speak out-- not
some desire to trash America for the hell of it.

(You'll never, ever grasp that concept, Henry, so go shave your knuckles.
I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation with Calvin, here...)

I am ashamed of what my country has **permitted, encouraged and caused to
come about** under its name, and in the furtherance of bullying,
power-grabbing, financial gain. I am repulsed by the criminal behavior that
has happened, and by which the world has come to know and to judge us these
past 6 years. It's not just the war I'm referring to, either.

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of you/your
family/company/neighborhood/country, based on what you say and do, how you
treat people? Not in my book.
"Screw 'em all; I don't care. I do whatever I want to." Hardly a way to go
about living, is it?
You're known and judged by your behavior. You are what you do. Your actions
define you.

Whether it's family tradition, neighborhood custom, corporate or
governmental policy that creates the shitty behavior that cause decent folk
to look at you askance and ask: "What the *** are they THINKING?", it's
cause for serious pause. It's reason enough to stop and evaluate that
behavior. Is there a reason the rest of the world finds our policies and
actions so abhorrent? Is there a reason nearly 70% of Americans see the war
as a failed, flawed course of action requiring our withdrawal? I think so.
Are we always right? I think not. That's impossible. Starting a pre-emptive
war with a country that was *proven* not to be a threat to us, or to have
had any hand in attacking us?? Thrusting ourselves forward as The Cops Of
The World to make everything "right" over there? "Shut the *** up,
towelhead! You'll take this democracy and you'll like it, Pilgrim! " Oh,
brother...

It matters to me. And again-- not just this hideous, wrong-headed war. It
hurts me deeply that we've stumbled so badly morally, ethically and legally
elsewhere on the international front and on the domestic front-- and that
not more people are outraged and foaming at the mouth for reform. "Screw the
poor! To hell with education! Loot the funds from healthcare! Piss on
mothers and kids at the poverty level! Up yours, middle-class people who
want affordable housing! *** all those veterans; let 'em wait for help and
rehab services and financial assistance! Halliburton needs more funds,
first!"

Where's our compassion? What happened to our priorities? Why do we care so
little about the most vulnerable, needy and deserving among us, and expend
so much effort in an attempt to shore up the cushy existence and to fatten
the bank accounts of the most privileged? We're better than this, dammit!
We've shown ourselves in the past to be capable of greatness-- *and*
goodness. I'm ashamed we're not more invested in demonstrating that face to
the world, and that we've adopted such a disdainful bullying posture.

It's the recent policy and the attitude, not the geography or heritage or
(most of) the history or the culture of the country that alarms and annoys
and frightens and sickens me.
Is that a little clearer?

(Close your mouth when you read, Henry. It's unattractive when you move your
lips like that... Run and get me and Calvin a drink why don't you...?)

Why does it hurt? Why the sense of shame? The reasons are abundant. They're
everywhere. Turn on the TV or read a paper or listen to the radio. You can't
make a move without running smack into some example of GOP criminal
ineptitude, blatant government cover-up or some fresh outrage perpetrated
against the legal system. It's like trying to walk down a Manhattan sidewalk
without stepping in dog *** or wino vomit-- and just about as pleasant an
experience as navigating that particular minefield...

You can always Google "Bush administration failures and scandals" and that'd
keep you up for days, reading.

There's a popular bumper sticker that reads: "If you're not outraged, you're
not paying attention."

All right-- enough of my own rhetoric.

Now, I don't know where you draw the line, morally, Calvin, but there's a
laundry list of things that this administration has done under the name of
American foreign policy, righteous global leadership, setting an outstanding
example for the world on how to properly and ethically conduct business and
legal affairs, and imposing democracy on an unwilling populace that just
makes *me* sick to my stomach. Sick and ashamed that a country that is
*supposed* to stand for all that's right and good and spiritually noble in
the world has permitted the rape of its Constitution and the violation of
standards that we've seen since the theft of the 2000 election.

Bush. "The Decider". A uniter; not a divider. He's rapidly uniting the
country under the idea that he's just about the worst person ever to hold
the office of President. He's the core of the reason. I don't like the guy,
or his pals, or the arrogant, sneering atmosphere they've generated since
the moment his ass hit the chair behind the desk in The Oval Office that has
allowed them to blithely excuse, condone, justify and even make legal (via
Signing Statements and the cherry-picking of elements of law to abide by or
ignore)their failure to demonstrate ethical, decent, compassionate, morally
correct choices in dealing with matters of law or even the basic regard in
which human beings should be held. The Patriot Act? Arrest and detention
without legal representation or trial? Deliberate attempts to smear, ruin
and silence critics of these ploicies is just a part of it.

Our status as a magnanimous, compassionate, noble and decent country has
sunk so incredibly low due to his ploicies, our credibility on the world
stage has been ruined, our adherence to principle has been so incredibly
eroded that it may well take generations to restore. It's been going on
since Bush took office and allowed his hubris and zealotry free reign. ALL
politicians are assholes-- that's a given. It takes incredible arrogance to
thrust oneself forward in that fashion and claim to be able to lead people
in the right direction, after all. What's their real agenda? Why should we
trust any of them, anyway? Well, some *do* manage, in spite of it all, to
accomplish good things. Others run riot over the conventions of decorum,
conventional wisdom, the lessons of history and plain old and good sense,
while cloaking themselves in the flag and the bible.

You actually want some reasons why I feel this way, and why I have for some
time?
Sure. I don't expect you to agree with any of it, necessarily, but rather
than have you think I'm simply pulling some stale, old, anti-American,
reconstituted, hippie-bull*** out of thin air, or just mouthing off in some
attempt to adopt a cool, anti-establishment posture, here you go:

In early 2004, an informal survey of 415 historians conducted by the
nonpartisan History News Network found that 81% considered the Bush
administration a "failure." Among those who called Bush a success, many gave
the president high marks *only* for his ability to mobilize public support
and get Congress to go along with what one historian called the
administration's "...pursuit of disastrous policies." In fact, roughly one
in ten of those who called Bush a success was being facetious (!), rating
him only as the best president since Bill Clinton -- a category in which
Bush is *the only* contestant. Historians are far more conservative and
critically disposed than pundits, having to draw on facts and records
without resorting to political bias.

To mention just the glaringly obvious negative failure points-- things of
which one might rightly be ashamed-- ...

read more »

Ok, you are on a completely different subject, really. I believe both
parties are disgusting. Abraham Lincoln did far more damage to civil
rights than Bush can dream of. James Madison & company never thought
the nation would last this long and really didn't plan on it. Most of
the founding fathers thought there would be a revolution in a
relatively short time period. I think the 2000 election was
ridiculous, but not stolen. It sounds more like to me that you would
like to see a revolution. I don't know, a cross between the far left
and Alex Jones? Now, I listen to Alex Jones, but I don't take what he
says as the honest truth and ,no, I would never think that you have
jumped on the relive the 60s bandwagon. That's crazy talk. I'll make
it even simpler. I'm anti-big government, anti-nosy government, anti-
socialism (which is one of the reasons I can't stand the far left) and
give a freakin Pep rally if I have to once our troops are ALREADY
DEPLOYED. Now if you want to argue on deploying them, be my guest.
Once they are in harm's way, it is best for THEM, for a unified front
to be put on for the WORLD as well as the ENEMY, that we stand by our
soldiers.
You want to know how pulling out troops would be a bad thing? Well,
you have to not see the situation in one dimension. Pulling them out
will impact they amount of resistance and type of resistance they will
see in future conflicts. Iraq will be thrown into chaos and it'll be
our fault. Just as it's Bush's fault we are there, it will be people
like you who are at fault for the massacre and civil war that will
most likely happen. Iran wants to take over Iraq in other news. Do
you think we are going to sit over here if Iran invades Iraq? Very
unlikely. Any way you look at it's our mess and we've got to clean it
up. I could care less on what administration is a failure in 2004
(then apparently got re-elected) or petty politics. It sounds to me
like political matters are more important to you than the subject that
I am on.
Cynic- Everyone is as worthless as me
Idealist- Everyone is worthless but me

.

Loading