Re: Hypoglycemia and Vomiting

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:50:00 +1000, "Ozgirl"
<are_we_there_yet@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

First, thank for this post. You have followed the thread and provided
a very interesting response based on all the information I have
provided. I will add one additional piece and ask some questions for
thought.

How can you be so sure of that? It takes about 3 days of very low carb to
clear the liver of stored glucose. If you were showing moderate ketones
after only one episode of injecting too much insulin then you are not eating
enough carbs to assist you in a hypo (as an insulin user).

It is not easy to die due to hypoglycemia. Are you aware of anyone
who actually has died from it? Don't get me wrong -- it's certainly
possible for it to happen. It's just a rare occurrence. If I was an
old man with a weak heart, I may have died. I don't consider death
due to hypoglycemic incident a possibility at all for one of good
health (unless, of course, they were driving or doing something that
required mental alertness).

Your thinking of three days to clear the liver of glucagon may be
accurate. I don't know. However, you're going along with Mack's line
of thinking. Why do you believe that when the liver is releasing
glucagon, nothing else can occur to increase blood glucose? Do you
believe that there's a list of things that happen in one specific
order? Why can't multiple things occur simultaneously? Why can't fat
be converted to glucose to raise the blood sugar at the same time the
liver is releasing glucagon and adrenal hormones are released?

Under those circumstances, if you had gone unconscious during the hypo you
are discussing there is a great risk of you dying. If I were an insulin user
I would be making sure I had enough stored glucose to "hopefully" cover an
unexpected hypo that was bad enough to cause unconsciousness.

I don't post here too often, but I have posted previously that I do
not intentionally follow any low carb diets. I get the bulk of my
carbs from: fruits, fruit juices, honey, sugar, and vegetables that
raise my blood sugar. I don't know of a way of determining the status
of my glucagon stores (I'm not convinced that spilling ketones is a
good way), but my body weight is consistent and good. Considering
that I do consume carbs, I see no reason why my glucagon stores would
be a concern. I eat three meals every day along with one snack.

Showing ketones would have been a big red marker for me. As mack said, if
there is no stored glucose (which obviously there wasn't much of because of
the ketone presence) the body won't burn fat fast enough to help you.

I don't know if this is accurate based on what I posted above. I do a
lot of testing, and I get 100 glucose/ketone test strips each month. I
test at least once a day. The reason is that urine tells me things
that my glucose meter does not. My urine tests were clean up until
this event (meaning no ketones nor glucose present).

I certainly do agree that burning fat stores is not fast, but you have
posted something interesting below that I will revisit this subject on
later.

As to the vomiting/choking thing... You might be able to clear your mouth
but if vomiting in your sleep caused the throat to be full you would be up
the creek. To clear the throat you need air behind the blockage. Unless
someone performed the Heimlich on you, you would have to take a deep breath
to create enough air to cough the blockage out. Unfortunately taking a deep
breath with a throat full of vomit won't allow you to do that - you would
just suck the vomit into your lungs and drown.

I've vomited a bit in my life. Perhaps it's different for me, but
here's what happens: when I have to vomit, my mouth opens as wide as
it possibly can without me doing anything. This happens on its own,
and I actually would have a difficult time trying to close my mouth.
Why do you believe that this behavior changes when I sleep? Perhaps
it's a case of natural selection, and my ancestors who choked to death
on their puke were killed thousands of years ago :-)

Does this not happen for you that you recall?

I think you are underestimating (or being over confident about outside help
and natural body assistance) the risks you live with.

"Ketones are the by-product of fat converted to glucose." That is a totally
wrong statement. Ketones are a by product of burning fat and can be used for
energy in the absence of glucose. Fat burning does not convert to glucose.

Do you at least agree that when my blood sugar went low and fat was
burned, my blood sugar went up? If you disagree with this, how do you
imagine that my blood sugar reached normal levels? Do you think that
my liver's glucagon stores were not empty, but fat was being burned at
the same time? I agree with the fat being burned at the same time
part, anyway :-)

If you agree that when fat was burned my blood sugar levels eventually
went up (which I am sure they did), this is an argument over semantics
and pointless. The end result is the same-- fat stores get burned,
ketones are a byproduct, and my blood sugar goes up. You call it
energy, and I call it glucose.

The presence of ketones in your urine (especially in moderate amounts)
indicates you have been burning fat for energy for at least 3 days.

Untrue. I test for ketones every day, and both ketones and glucose
were absent from my urine. Again, I have a healthy build and am of a
normal weight for my height.

More points to ponder: hypos caused by too large an insulin dose make it
more difficult for the release of glucose from the liver- it also makes it
harder for injected glucagon to reverse the hypo. Adrenaline responses are
suppressed while you are sleeping - so there goes another one of your
"safety" valves. As I said, you are relying too heavily on nature working
for you.

I'm not sure that this is true. At least I have someone who had
witnessed me being hypo when sleeping years ago. They had told me
that I was kicking and waving my arms like a fish out of water. I
fell on the floor or something (I certainly don't remember the
incident). Anyway, this is a symptom of stress hormones being
released, and I was sleeping.

I'm not an expert by any means. I speak from experience.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Hypoglycemia and Vomiting
    ... The endocrine responses to a hypo can fail ... Why can't fat ... "Ketones are the by-product of fat converted to glucose." ... Do you at least agree that when my blood sugar went low and fat was ...
    (alt.support.diabetes)
  • Re: Hypoglycemia and Vomiting
    ... carb to clear the liver of stored glucose. ... The endocrine responses to a hypo can fail ... "Ketones are the by-product of fat converted to glucose." ... Do you at least agree that when my blood sugar went low and fat was ...
    (alt.support.diabetes)
  • Re: Keto Care test strips from CVS
    ... If one wants to lose weight, one has to use more fat than comes from diet. ... If there is not sufficient glucose to meet the body's energy needs, ... called ketones. ... Since a T-2 usually has adequate, if not excessive, insulin available, until the reserves, stored as glycogen, are exhausted the body remains in a glucose burning mode. ...
    (alt.support.diabetes)
  • Re: Hypoglycemia and Vomiting
    ... Ketones are the byproduct of fat converted to glucose. ... one of the methods my body had used to raise my blood sugar. ...
    (alt.support.diabetes)
  • Re: Consistantly high numbers and I dont know why
    ... If they are being used for glucose because someone doesn't have enough glucose, they need to be converted to glucose. ... But we have specific needs for both protein and fat other than their use as potential glucose replacements - in those cases, they are not converted; even people who eat plenty of carbs still need protein and fat in their diet for many purposes that have nothing to do with glucose at all. ... Most of the body will burn ketones as energy, some bits actually prefer ketones over glucose for fuel. ...
    (alt.support.diabetes)