Re: Atkins vs South Beach vs Ornish

Jackie Patti wrote:

Michael Sand wrote:

Jackie Patti wrote:
I understand that commonly-available canola oil is processed and
therefore contains trans fats, just at a low enough level to round to 0g
per serving on the label.

Are you sure? Why hydrogenate it? Moderate heat shouldn't harm.

Am I sure? No. But I've heard this from several sources. Apparently,
hydrogenation improves shelf life.
Since I can't find anything specifically labeled as virgin canola oil, I
quit using it myself.

Why not contact the producers to sort things out instead of banning a
possibly healthy product for questionable reasons? I just read the
label of my rapeseed oil. Stored in the dark at room temperature it
has to be consumed within a year. That's plenty of time. With flaxseed
oil it could be a much shorter period. I read Jan/2008, but found no
production date.

But fish oil is darned cheap so I've taken to recommending it at the
same level I recommend a general multivitamin - probably benefits nearly
everyone unless they eat loads of fish already.

A plausible strategy. What does a bottle of fish oil cost you and
what's the amount you ingest per day?

I think the fish oil is in the "general recommendation" category though
- it's cheap and can't hurt.

ACK.

I've been finding stuff about vitamin D everywhere lately. Apparently,
most supplements contain D2 and a subset of people do not convert
efficiently to D3. People who do stuff like landscaping and live in FL
and such have turned up deficient in serum levels of vitamin D!

I'm sure you know, that vitamin D substances actually are hormones and
not essential vitamins, which means, they can be synthesized by our
bodies themselves. Only under certain conditions, in particular if
you're not sufficiently exposed to ultraviolet radiation or as a
result of a grave liver or kidney insufficiency, you get a deficit.
The physiologic precursor of active vitamin D is 7-dehydrocholesterol,
transformed into cholecalciferol (D3) under ultraviolet radiation,
which happens in the skin. The activation by hydroxylation then takes
place in liver and kidneys. AFAIK calciferol (D2) is a technical
product derived from ergosterol, a plant steroid, also by UV
radiation. So whom would you blame for our deficit in utilizing D2
when we're perfectly designed to build our own 'vitamin' D? ;-)

Goodness, you're a geek! I learn so much reading your posts!

Thanks, but no, I have to pass the compliment back. We, as most of
others here, are merely interested in basing our decisions on
reasonable grounds. And learning in a group of kindred souls is much
more motivating than doing it in isolation. Thus it's me who profits
most. Problems and questions are often more inspiring, more important
for advance than answers. That's why I love to participate in this
group.

I haven't looked into GLA much yet, though see some of the CLA-pushing
folks also push GLA for weight loss.

Bernstein seemed to push evening primrose oil with the "other" ALA for
insulin sensitivity, but seems to have backed off to just the ALA lately.

I'm still waiting for his new book, hope to get it within the next few
days.

So I don't know about GLA, but some of the CLA benefits seem clear to
me. Given that we do need some amount of omega6s, it seems a no-brainer
to get them from pasture-rasied animals rather than vegetable oils.

I don't rack my brain over n-6 supply, as it's unavoidable to get
plenty of it from n-3 sources.

I am not clear on the saturated fat vs. polyunsaturated fat question;
research seems contradictory to me.

In which respect? Replacing saturated fat by omega-6 rich vegetable
oils, as proclaimed by the anti-cholesterol campaign throughout
previous decades, obviously was a washout. But what against taking the
chance to shift to the advantageous omega-3 fatty acids instead?

I think replacing animal fats with most vegetable oils is bad because it
screws up the omega ratios and that is unfortunately the standard advice
usually given to folks about fat.

Of course you have to select nutrients that support your goals of
lowering the n-6:n-3 ratio, and there are dietary oils as well that
can thwart your intentions. But I feel more secure when relying on
certain sorts of vegetable oils with nearly standardized ingredients
than depending on non-standardized feeding practices of meat producers
I don't know. Moreover, I didn't calculate that yet, but it may be
hard to eat the amount of lean meat that corresponds to the quantity
of n-3 PUFAs concentrated in one single tablespoon of flaxseed oil.
Don't get me wrong, I consider the current recommendations of 15
energy-% from protein to be way too low, especially for diabetics, and
would favour to nearly double that share, which not least is a
question of micronutrients.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced saturated fats are "good" either.
Obviously, they don't oxidize nor form weird trans configurations and
such, but I'm unsure whether they're neutral or bad. That's where I'm
uncertain - there seems good research and arguments on both the
pro-saturated and anti-saturated fat argument.

I never heared of an SFA deficiency. Isn't one of the problems of our
Western eating habits getting too much of them?

The vegetable oils I use are olive, avocado and nuts - all of which are
neutral or adding to the omega3 overall.

Olive oil 10% PUFA, no more than 1% ALA / omega-3 AFAICS. That fits
the unhealthy U.S. 6:3 ratio of about 10. Olive oil is known to be
high in phenolic compounds, but its disadvantageous energy density
leaves less room for n-3 rich food. :-( Would eating olives and
drinking other oils be a solution, as the solid production residues
often contain more healthy components than the final liquid product?
:-)

Moreover, it's no secret, that LA also induces insulin resistance.
What if our metabolic disaster as a whole is mainly driven by the PUFA
problematic, and you see a major improvement of all aspects of this
syndrome with nothing but a normalized omega-3 FA concentration in
your fatty tissue regardless of your BMI? Should we simply turn our
bad VAT into good VAT instead of getting rid of it, which anyway we
rarely succeed in?

It's a very chicken-and-egg kind of question.

And it's provocative, I know. Nevertheless, I'd be interested in
results of some study analyzing the fatty acid components of VAT
obtained as a by-product from routine abdominal surgery, and
correlating them with the health status of the patient (BMI,
hypertension, diabetes etc.).

IMO, too long it's been viewed entirely as a carb issue. And I do think
carb intake is very important for T2s and others with metabolic syndrome
- we can build gobs of bad fats out of excess glucose and fructose
easily enough after all.

Of course, without a carbohydrate mast you get less fatty tissue,
which is assumed to be the promoter of the metabolic syndrome, maybe
because that's where the bad n-6 fatty acids reside, that are known to
support the production of proinflammatory n-6 arachidonic acid and
interleukines. Now if you have that bad n-6 tooth taken out ... ???

[guidance for low-carb meal substitutes snipped]

Thanks for the explanation.

I'm uncertain on the coconut oil issue. The chain length of fattay
acids seems a bit spurious of a distinction to me based on my
understanding of fatty acid metabolism, unless someone wants to argue
for even-chain vs. odd-chain length.

Any indication of the chain length making a difference? Otherwise I'd
concentrate on the facts. Isn't it hard to find out such differences
with no purified fatty acids available for feeding over a longer
period of time, to say nothing of the poor volunteers taking part in
such a study?

There's one paper stored on my harddisk dealing with pp profiles after
meals containing different fatty acids, but I've no idea how to
interpret those data and whether the findings are relevant at all:

'Effect of 6 dietary fatty acids on the postprandial lipid profile,
plasma fatty acids, lipoprotein lipase, and cholesterol ester transfer
activities in healthy young men'
(http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/73/2/198.pdf).

Right. We have to be content with a healthy approach, as the
theoretical optimum is out of reach.

The optimum is *impossible*.

The biochemistry of nutrition has grown *tremendously* since I was a
grad student a couple decades ago.

So we'll know all sorts of other new stuff a decade or two from now that
will make today's knowledge seem quaint.

The bad thing is, the facts are obvious, but we don't act accordingly.
Tobacco commercials are prohibited, but more and more soft drink
companies flood our schools. To allow this is a hypocritical behaviour
of the administration and all the other parties involved. Not long ago
here in Germany we had a discussion about raising VAT for sugar,
candies etc., which clearly threaten out health - just guess what
happened. And what are the agricultural subsidies paid for? Mostly in
support of products high in energy density. I can't accept, that every
$ invested in this field entails another one having to be given to the
healthcare sector to cover follow-up costs. SCNR.

I didn't have a garden this year due to my health issues,

Hope you're doing better soon.

BTW: You got my mail?

Yes, I am behind on email.

No reason to hurry. I just wanted to be sure you got mine.

Kind regards

Mike

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Atkins vs South Beach vs Ornish
    ... Since I can't find anything specifically labeled as virgin canola oil, ... I think replacing animal fats with most vegetable oils is bad because it ... often contain more healthy components than the final liquid product? ... because that's where the bad n-6 fatty acids reside, ...
    (alt.support.diabetes)
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  • Re: OK to take flax seed oil AND fish oil?
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