Re: Wine Consumption and Diabetes

Alan: I have kept up with your NG input and do agree with you. However
are you taking metformin by chance? Do you have full blown T2 diabetes?
My point is possible problems with an interaction of metformin and
alcohol of any sort. I thought I made this pretty clear.

Larry
Alan S wrote:
> On 6 Dec 2005 08:02:57 -0800, "Larry" <boelkowj@xxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> >Hello my good NGers.. Just wanted to share my thoughts on a recent
> >experiment. For those scientifically inclined this is a study N=1
> >(myself) and some general ideas I have as a result. Please be kind to
> >me. As a T2 person who enjoys dry red wine..2-3 glasses many nights I
> >have asked several people..ie my doctor, my pharmcist, nurse, endo etc
> >about wine as a contraindication in diabetes taking and not taking
> >metformin and reasons why or why not. I read in the package insert
> >about "excessive alcohol" intake or "binge drinking" (not me).. Replies
> >I have gotten are typically 1) "One glass (maybe 2?) dry red wine daily
> >is probably OK and maybe good for you so far as CV beneficial effects
> >but beer and some drinks are too high in coloric content" 2) "metformin
> >and alcohol don't work too well together" 3) " Caution in Package
> >Insert mainly addresses potential liver toxicity since both alcohol and
> >metformin are metabolzed in the liver.4) "too much alcohol can cause
> >lactate acidosis." As you can see most of these explanations are more
> >or less tolerant of some wine consumption. My thought was until I could
> >find a definitive reason to stop ..why stop.? After a bit more Google
> >searching and a 2 week trial with no wine here are my observations
> >which you may find helpful to you. 1) alcohol potentiate lactate levels
> >in certain tissues of the body (subclinical lactic acidosis?) even at
> >low doses. 2) hepatobiliary disease ie. death has a higher
> >standardized mortality ratio due to cirrhosis than cardiovascular
> >disease in T2s. (Keith Tolman, MD). My observation: FBG levels are now
> >consistently 120 plus or minus 5 rather tha 145 plus or minus 10. No
> >change in PP numbers that I can note. Sleep better with fewer
> >awakenings. I have no idea if these improvements are just a transient
> >positive effect on my metabolism but time will only determine that. I
> >only hope some kind of compensitory mechanisms in the body won't reset
> >my FBG level back to where there have been for the past few years. I
> >suggest that researchers should look more closely at the interaction
> >between metformin and alcohol consumption particulary to explain the
> >bimodal action of alcohol ie lowering FBG levels on the short term and
> >higher FBG levels on the long term. Aside from alcohol's well known
> >effect on changes of some drug metabolism through liver enzyme
> >induction (Cytochrome P450), one should study further possible toxicity
> >of metformin-alcohol on metabolic pathways involving lactate levels
> >(Kreb Cycle?). Again I am not refering to full blown lactate acidosis
> >but just subclinical symptoms effecting sleep, heart rate,
> >palputations. breathing rate, restlessness during sleep, restless leg
> >syndrome, body quivering" etc. It may be that elevated lactate levels
> >(lactate/pyuvate ratio?) is a culprit for some of these side effects.
> >So for now I am staying off wine to see what happens down the road..
> >Maybe some day a couple glasses a week would seem reasonable and safe
> >as I do enjoy fine wine. Cheers..
> >
> >Larry
>
> Hi Larry
>
> I am an unashamed promoter of red wine for medicinal
> purposes, and practise what I preach. I drink about
> 300-400ml daily of dry red wine, in the form of a glass at
> lunch and two at dinner.
>
> In experiments on BGs, I found a minimal reducing effect -
> certainly not an increase in my n=1 experiments.
>
> When I say "promoter" I don't imply it's suitable for all.
> Decisions on wine or other forms of alcohol should be taken
> in context of your medical situation, addiction history,
> doctor's advice - and whether you like it. However, for
> those who can drink it - I think it's great.
>
> I'm closing down the computer today, so I don't have time to
> write a full response. However, the subject has been
> discussed here regularly and I started a few threads myself.
> Below are a couple of links, and I've repeated my post from
> one about a year ago:
>
> Little Ole Wine Drinker Me
> http://tinyurl.com/dtycu
>
> Red Wine
> http://tinyurl.com/9l2j2
> "Alan Nov 4 2004, 9:57 pm
>
> On a different thread there was a minor dispute on the
> relative benefits of alcohol (all forms), white wine and red
> wine.
>
> From my research two things become very clear, provided that
> there are no other factors determining suitability of
> alcohol: alcohol in moderation is beneficial to your health,
> particularly diabetic health; and of the various forms of
> alcohol red wine has additional benefits for heart health,
> diabetes and some forms of cancer.
>
> That is also an opinion based on personal experience. I
> drink about a half-bottle (350-400 ml) of red wine daily.
>
> In the various articles and research papers I have read the
> definition of moderation is a little variable; however the
> general consensus is that two 5 (us) ounce glasses daily for
> a male, and half that for a female, is moderate and
> sufficient to be beneficial.
>
> I was going to post a whole lot of research cites, but
> decided instead to just post a few from the first page of a
> high-wire search on "red wine diabetes". Some may argue that
> some of the studies are not conclusive because there were
> small sample sizes or other factors. However, the sheer
> number of positive studies is overhelming. I sampled
> many of the 476 discovered by that search without finding a
> negative report.
>
> I would suggest trying similar searches on "red wine
> cardiovascular" or "cancer" or inserting "resveratrols" in
> lieu of "red wine" for those that are interested.
>
> Highwire is at http://highwire.stanford.edu/
> and registration does not lead to spam.
>
> http://highwire.stanford.edu/cgi/medline/pmid;11298779?maxtoshow=&HIT...
>
> Red wine protects diabetic patients from meal-induced
> oxidative stress and thrombosis activation: a pleasant
> approach to the prevention of cardiovascular disease in
> diabetes.
>
> CONCLUSION: This finding confirms that in the absorptive
> phase free radicals are produced in diabetic patients, which
> reduce serum antioxidant defences, increase LDL oxidation
> and activate the coagulation system. Red wine consumption
> during a meal significantly preserves plasma antioxidant
> defences and reduces both LDL oxidation and thrombotic
> activation. The consumption of a moderate amount of red wine
> during meals may have a beneficial effect in the prevention
> of cardiovascular disease in diabetic patients.
> ...........
> http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/75/5/856?maxtoshow=&HITS=&hi...
>
> Effects of wine intake on postprandial plasma amino acid and
> protein kinetics in type 1 diabetes1,2,3
>
> Conclusions: In insulin-infused patients with type 1
> diabetes, moderate wine intake with a meal resulted in 1) a
> higher fibrinogen FSR, glucagon concentration, and
> first-pass splanchnic uptake of leucine and phenylalanine;
> 2) lower dietary phenylalanine oxidation; 3) selective
> changes in plasma amino acid concentrations; 4) and no
> impairment in endogenous proteolysis and albumin synthesis.
> ..........
> http://highwire.stanford.edu/cgi/medline/pmid;14606979?maxtoshow=&HIT...
>
> This review focuses on the link between diabetes mellitus
> and oxidative stress and, in particular, on the role that
> moderate wine consumption may play in preventing diabetic
> complications and the onset of diabetes. With this aim, a
> search of PubMed was carried out for literature published up
> to March 2003.
> .....
> In conclusion, moderate and regular wine consumption could
> ameliorate the diabetic oxidative status. This lifestyle
> measure might contribute to preventing diabetic
> complications and the onset of diabetes.
> ...........
> http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/4/546?maxtos...
>
> Short-term effect of red wine (consumed during meals) on
> insulin requirement and glucose tolerance in diabetic
> patients
> ........
> CONCLUSIONS--Moderate prandial wine consumption has no
> adverse effect on the glycemic control of diabetic patients.
> Thus, it appears unnecessary to proscribe the consumption of
> red wine in moderation with meals to diabetic patients. Wine
> contains tannins and phytates that can explain its action.
> .......
> http://highwire.stanford.edu/cgi/medline/pmid;10484061?maxtoshow=&HIT...
>
> Effects of red wine, tannic acid, or ethanol on glucose
> tolerance in non-insulin-dependent diabetic patients and on
> starch digestibility in vitro.
> .........
> Drinking red wine with a meal did not increase blood glucose
> in NIDDM patients, and led to a slight decrease in some
> instances. The effect appeared to be mediated by the
> nonalcoholic compounds in wine such as tannic acid. Ethanol
> itself had no effect on plasma glucose or insulin levels.
> ...........
> http://highwire.stanford.edu/cgi/medline/pmid;15334193?maxtoshow=&HIT...
>
> Wine, alcohol and atherosclerosis: clinical evidences and
> mechanisms.
> ........
> These findings lead to the concept that moderate red wine
> drinking, in the absence of contraindications, may be
> beneficial to patients who are at risk of atherosclerotic
> cardiovascular events. Moreover, a diet based on fruits and
> vegetables containing flavonoids may be even more
> beneficial. "
>
> Cheers Alan, T2, Australia.
> --
> I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience.
> Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be
> an expensive teacher.
>
> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

.

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