OT - long reply to Budd - wasteful to most subscribers.

WARNING TO ALL CASUAL READERS: THIS IS EXTREMELY LONG.


On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:16:33 GMT, "Budd Cochran"
<mr-d150@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>
>"Grandpa Chuck" <Grandpa Chuck@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message

<snip>

>>
>> There isn't a think wrong with my memory. Why is it you now come back
>> in with flames flying? Can you not accept the love of a brother
>> diabetic?
>
>Where or when have you ever not given me reason to not defend myself and my
>beliefs? You slam Christianity, you slam me.

How can that be when you are so filled with hatred rather than the
unconditional love of Jesus Christ?

I do not slam you, as you put it. I disagree very strongly with your
view of religion. Any religion - any - that is fear based has very
little to do with God's love of us all.

>
>You are a fellow diabetic.
>>
>> >>
>> >> >. . .so, believe your little "assumption" if it
>> >> >makes you feel superior.
>> >>
>> >> You already know that I have no need nor desire to feel superior to
>> >> anyone.
>> >
>> >Liar.
>>
>> Just because you do not believe me does not a liar make of me, my
>> brother.
>
>No, but your untruths do.

Untruths? You haven't shown any.

Look - I have no wish to argue with you.
Why can't we just share what we do to control our diabetes and be done
with it?

>>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >And now to find you writing this . . .you still haven't changed at
>all,
>> >you
>> >> >pompous fool. Oh, yes, the reference to "buddy" is obvious, as you
>> >intended
>> >> >it to be. You and Mack were the only ones to ever call me that. It's a
>> >> >compliment, BTW, since that was my step-dad's original nickname for
>me.
>> >>
>> >> I have always considered you to be a friend and brother, even though a
>> >> reluctant one.
>> >
>> >And I consider you to a thorn in my side although the pain is often in my
>> >gluteous maximus.
>>
>> That makes it your problem. Once again, I consider you to be a
>> brother. It may be a brother with a very narrow bigoted view of
>> things, but a brother none the less.
>
>You percierve bigotry because you are blinded by your own.

No, I am not blinded by my bigotry at all. I very definitely am
bigoted against any religion that is based in fear. God is not
something to be feared. God is unconditional love and would never do
anything to punish any of us. We do a very good job of that all by
ourselves.

Perhaps you might benefit by something I love to read every day:

FOOTPRINTS


One night a man had a dream. He dreamed
he was walking along the beach with the LORD.

Across the sky flashed scenes from his life.
For each scene he noticed two sets of
footprints in the sand: one belonging
to him, and the other to the LORD.

When the last scene of his life flashed before him,
he looked back at the footprints in the sand.

He noticed that many times along the path of
his life there was only one set of footprints.

He also noticed that it happened at the very
lowest and saddest times in his life.

This really bothered him and he
questioned the LORD about it:

"LORD, you said that once I decided to follow
you, you'd walk with me all the way.
But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life,
there is only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why when
I needed you most you would leave me."

The LORD replied:

"My son, my precious child, I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of
footprints, it was then that I carried you."

written by Mary Stevenson



>> >> I have found you many times to be quite similar to my third son. That
>> >> is, I love Joe as a son, but quite often can't stand his behavior
>> >> since it is so terribly self-centered and he usually thinks others are
>> >> out to get him.
>> >
>> >Oh, I understand, I often find your behavior to be reprehensible . . I
>> >wonder where your son learned it?
>>
>> From his bitch of a mother, which she remains to this day. Joe is the
>> only one of our children that has not told me how bitter and crazy she
>> is and how happy they are that I have found a wonderful mate in
>> Laurie.
>
>Ah, denial of responsibility. Funny, your attitude towards me is quite
>similar to what you see and dislike in your son.

Wrong again.

My son, like his mother, feels the world is out to get him and owes
him a living. He will take anything he can by whatever means possible
with no regard to whether his actions hurt someone else or not. He
persuaded us to co sign two loans so he and his first wife could buy a
mobile home. When he defaulted on those loans we had to pay them. Then
when he took bankruptcy he included us on the list of people he owed
so now believes he is under no obligation to repay us. His actions had
a very detrimental effect on our credit rating.

You say I dislike my son. Nothing could be further from the truth. I
love him. I detest what he has done and hope some day he will admit he
has harmed us and make restitution. I have told him a number of times
that for every dollar he pays us I will subtract three from his debt.

I say his behavior is like his mothers because she is envious of
anyone who has things she doesn't, even her own children, regardless
of how hard they have worked to get where they are. A number of times
she has persuaded people to sell her things and then never paid for
them and has only gotten angry when they asked for payment.

I don't really see you as ever doing any of those things. I see you as
being an honest kind hearted man who always pays his debts and is
gracious to those he owes. I am sure if you and I knew each other on a
personal level you would treat me with the respect I deserve. However,
online you can let the evil side come through with no fear of
embarrassment or of public ridicule. Is that the Christian way?

>>
>> >>
>> >> >.quite the coward.
>> >>
>> >> Budd, if I were a coward I would just ignore you rantings or killfile
>> >> you. Oh. I forgot. You in fact killfiled both Mack and I (or at least
>> >> claimed to) for quite a long period of time.
>> >
>> >No, to ignore me wouldn't be cowardice, but to make back handed
>references
>> >to me is.
>>
>> Bach handed? Me thinks your paranoia is showing.
>
>Methinks you self denial of responsibility is still running rampant.

And, as usual, you are wrong. I love you my brother. If I were a
coward, as you claim, I would not admit that. Instead I would
retaliate in kind for your hurtful words.

>>
>> >>
>> >> Actually, I am happy to see you posting again. I do hope this time you
>> >> will bless us with your experience, strength and hope rather than
>> >> quoting platitudes found in some book.
>> >
>> >Would you ask a soldier to leave behind all his resources, weapons, ammo,
>> >armor and supplies before going to face an enemy.
>>
>> I have not asked you to leave your beliefs behind - not ever. I have
>> asked you to express your own opinions rather than parroting something
>> you read in an ancient book.
>
>The Bible is my armor, my shield, my support, my beliefs, my all. Tis better
>that I parrot the writings of a God that loved me enought to be the
>sacrifice for my sins than to parrot the secular world's lies, deceptions
>and evil.

GOD NEVER WROTE A BOOK OR ANYTHING ELSE.
GOD DOES NOT OWN A PRINTING PRESS AND HAS NO NEED OF ONE.
GOD IS IN ALL THINGS, ALL AROUND US, AND SPEAKS TO EACH OF US EVERY
SINGLE DAY IF WE WILL ONLY LISTEN WITH AN OPEN HEART.

The Bible is a book written by men - mostly Roman Catholic Monks -
with an agenda to control the masses. It is a combination of a very
slanted view of history in a very small part of the world and a group
of legends and superstitious writings. Many religious sects at the
time had stories of virgin births and of resurrections from the dead.
They just didn't happen to convince a Roman Emperor to adopt them as
his religion and thus be forced on the masses.

>>
>> > That's what you are asking
>> >of me.
>>
>> To quote your earlier statement in this post, "Liar."
>
>Wrong, Chuck. I have never asked you to put down any book that supports your
>beliefs, though I have refused to read them.

Refused because you fear you might find some truth in them. I have
read your Bible from cover to cover and found it wanting,
contradictory and false.

> In that we have agreed, since
>YOU refuse to read the Bible.

I have read your Bible from cover to cover and found it wanting,
contradictory and false.

> And, although I have on occasion asked you to
>not quote from them, you continue to do so.

Show me one quote from those books in this thread.

> OTOH, if I quote Scripture, you
>come completely unglued, DEMANDING THAT I STOP, ASSAULTING MY BELIEFS,
>CASTING ASPERSIONS ON MY SANITY AND INTELLIGENCE.

You proselytize. Quote all you want. That does not mean I will read
them.

>
>Now who's being the bigot again??? Don't point your finger at me, there are
>three digits pointing back at yourself.

What happened to the thumb? Were you born an *** or did you have
to study to become one? I come at you with open hands and love and you
do nothing but flame and insult me. Is that the way your mother taught
you to treat others? It certainly is not he way Jesus taught he
followers. What kind of Christian teats others with such hatred?
>>
>> >>
>> >> BTW, do you still believe Bush to be a good Christian and honest man
>> >> in light of all of his proven lies and uncaring behavior over the past
>> >> few months?
>> >
>> >None of your business.
>>
>> See? You refuse to express a real opinion except to flame a fellow
>> brother in diabetes. What a wonderful Christian example you set for
>> others to follow.
>
>My opinions of the war, the President are my own and not to be trotted out
>for you to use as potential fuel in your propaganda machinations.

So you are that ashamed that you backed the son of a bitch?

>>
>> > Btw, have you never been misinformed? Or don't you
>> >watch CNN anymore?
>>
>> I never have watched CNN very much at all. I am surprised you can tear
>> yourself away from FAUX-NEWS, aka FOX-NEWS, long enough to know what
>> others are saying.
>
>The advantage of FOX is that it covers all viewpoints equally, without
>liberal biases and propagandas.

ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING MY ASS OFF.
You are a bald face liar to even have the gall to type out such a
falsehood. FOX is completely biased in everything they put out over
the air. If it isn't approved by Rupert Murdoch and company it doesn't
go out.

> CNN used to, but were taken over by the
>liberals without firing a shot.

Liberals - true liberals - have very little voice in the mass media.
It is for the most part completely controlled by Bush supporting quasi
conservative Republicans. Just look at who owns them and who they
contribute to.
>>
>> >>
>> >> We now are approaching the 2,000 mark of dead Americans who all died
>> >> as a direct result of Bush's lies. All Americans should be ashamed to
>> >> call him President.
>> >
>> >Then you have the right to be ashamed and the right to be offended as
>well.
>>
>> As are many, many other proud Americans. I am very proud of our
>> soldiers in arms. I am ashamed of what Bush is forcing them to do and
>> of them being maimed and killed based on lies.
>
>Right. You still haven't figured out who authorized the war, have you? Hint:
>think legislative branch.

Because they bought into the Rove line of bull*** laid out by Bush,
Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Donald H. Rumsfeld, Cheney and others.
You can believe that I have held my senators and representatives' feet
to the fire hundreds of times for their being so gullible. They didn't
even have the balls to declare war on Iraq.

However, it was and is Bush's responsibility from beginning till now
with no end in sight.

Those three factions have been at war since before the Bible was
written and Bush is so damned stupid that he thinks we can change it
by killing a bunch of them. RIDICULOUS to the point of being absurd!

>>
>> >You do not have the right to not be ashamed nor not be offended. We both
>> >have the right to be offensive and to shame others.
>>
>> That makes about as much sense as many of the idiocies that Bush,
>> Cheney and Rove spout.
>
>It makes more sense than what you wrote. It's from the "Bill of Non-Rights",
>the thorn in the liberal agenda's tire

***!
Bush, Cheney and Rove are doing everything in their power to gut the
Bill of Rights except for the Amendments they like.

Uh, what is the "liberal agenda's tire"? For that matter, what is the
imagined "liberal agenda"? I haven't seen one.

I, as an individual, favor a national health care cradle to grave
program similar to Sweden's. However, I haven't seen that in any
writings. I see nothing in the newspaper about any formal Liberal
Party. I certainly have not seen anything like that from the
Democratic Party. I get as much propaganda from the Republicans as I
do from the Democrats, which thankfully is very little. I have enough
crap to put in our recycling bin without ever opening it as it is.

>>
>> >>
>> >> God loves you and so do I. Live with it.
>> >
>> >My God and Saviour loves you and is waiting to hear from you. He said so
>in
>> >His Bible. Read it again for the first time.
>>
>> NEWS FLASH!!!
>> GOD NEVER WROTE ANY BOOK!!!
>> NONE!!!
>
>He inspired it, just as a mountain meadow can inspire a painter to paint, a
>child playing can inspire a author to write, or a crash of a wave can
>inspire a poet to dream.

And so have many, many other such things been inspired by one person
or another's view of God's beauty and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. After all
God lives in everything and every being equally. God lives in the
lowly cockroach as much as She does in you and I.

>
>Yes, others wrote it for Him . . .call it Holy Ghost writing if you wish.

I don't. God has never told anyone to write down anything including
the Ten Commandments.

>
>> When I talked to Her this morning she asked me to continue including
>> you and your misguided brethren in my prayers. She told me to remain
>> steadfast in my understanding and tolerance of those that are willing
>> to hate others for their way of seeking Her guidance and blessings.
>
>Then she lied to you.

God does not lie. EVER.

> If Satan can appear as an angel of light, why couldn't
>he appear to you as a woman?

There is no Satan except the in hearts of certain men and women. So if
you see Satan then it exists in your heart. God does not allow such a
being to exist except in one's own mind.
>>
>> >
>> >Budd
>> >
>> ><liberal/socialistic propaganda snipped>
>>
>> So, according to you, listing the number of Americans killed in the
>> war in Iraq is "liberal/socialistic propaganda"? Is that right? In
>> other words you do not feel any respect whatever for the sacrifice
>> they have given. And you have the unmitigated gall to call yourself a
>> patriot and a Christian. That proves you to be a prevaricator of the
>> worse kind. Pathetic!
>
>It matters to me, but I can't bring them back, nor can you.

But by opposing the war I along with many others of a like mind may be
able to shorten it and save the lives of others as we did to end the
Vietnam War. It wasn't until those of us opposed to that war became
vocal enough to be heard that the US powers decided enough was enough.

> They died as
>soldiers of the U.S., with honor.

And if you read my sigline then you know I post it with the upmost
respect for what they sacrificed.

> Maybe you should ask some of their
>compatriots' opinions of the war before you slam Pres. Bush.

They don't dare. They would not fight if they didn't believe the
constant brainwashing the military spoon feeds them every day.

> I asked my son
>while in the Navy some months after 9/11, if a poll had been taken aboard
>ship when 9/11 happened. He said that when the Dixie Chicks country western
>group slammed President Bush and the War for Iraqi Freedom, the sailors on
>the Harry S. Truman, that had their CD's, found novel ways to destroy them:
>catapulted off the bow, toasted in F-18 exhaust, taped them to the deck
>where the planes touched down, used for skeet shooting, etc. That showed
>about 3000 voices contrary to your voice.

In other words what you just said is they did not believe the Dixie
Chicks has right to the freedom of speech they have sworn to protect.
What they did is also a protected right. So what is your point? Oh.
That's right. You don't think anyone should ever object to the
President's actions. That is called censorship and is common under
dictatorial governments. Is that what you want - so long as it
includes YOUR brand of hate filled Christianity?

>
>In a democracy, numbers count.

NEWS FLASH!
THE UNITED IN NOT NOW NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN A DEMOCRACY.
We are a republic with a representative government.

You had best thank your lucky stars that we are not a true democracy.
You do know how a true democracy would work don't you?
No minority would have any rights unless the majority out of some
altruism gave it to them. This country would be totally controlled by
large metropolitan areas such as NYC and LA and small population
states like Utah, where you live, and Iowa, where I live would be
totally dependant on them.

>>
>> A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.
>
>Forget to pay your light bill? This comment of yours is not applicable. You
>are not sharing knowledge, just propaganda. The difference? "Knowledge" is
>available without animosity or political intent, "Propaganda" is nothing but
>political intentions, usually negative.

More flames and lack of understanding. Pathetic.

>
>You have a right to your opinion and to have a wrong opinion.

In your eyes only.

> You do not
>have the right to make me give you my opinion, and I have the right to not
>give it and to be offended by your commentaries about my not giving my
>opinion, which I am.

But I do have the right to ask of it. If you are offended by my doing
so then you should not bait someone to do so. Why should you be
offended if I point out that rather than telling us how you as an
individual feel you have to parrot what you have been brainwashed by
your religion to say?
>
>BTW, Chuck, what POSITIVE thing have you offered to end the war?

Many letter to my elected officials for one.
I have done other things that, as you like to say, are none of your
business.

>>
>> Love is giving all with no conditions.
>> Love is expecting nothing in return.
>
>Too bad you don't understand this as well as you think you do.

I freely give you love.
I expect nothing in return. That's a damned good thing too considering
your insults, flames and hatred you throw at me. You come back in
finally after all these months for only one purpose - to pick a fight
with me. You are so fucking pathetic and laughable. I have to love you
because you show time after time how much you need that love.

>>
>>
>> Bud you and I can continue to flame one another or we can choose to
>> show our love of God by giving it freely to each other. Your choice my
>> brother.
>
>No, Chuck, it's always been your choice.

I beg your pardon.
You came in with both guns blazing and it is my choice. BULL***!

> The only problem I have with you is
>your bigotry towards Christianity and Christians that don't roll over and
>play dead when you tell them to.

I have many friends and relatives who are Christian. Most of them -
not all - practice the love that Jesus taught.

>That's where you fail in your understanding
>of the definition of unconditional love.

To quote your religion, "Love the sinner. Hate the sin."
I can and do love you, but that doesn't mean I have to approve of your
hate and acid filled remarks.

> Maybe that why I'm such a pain in
>your backside.

You see that is another example of one of your erroneous assumptions.
You are not a pain in my backside at all. I pity you and pray for you
every night.

>You've repeatedly proved your lack understanding
>unconditional love by your assaults on me for my beliefs.

You have steadfastly refused to give your beliefs. Instead you repeat
what you believe the Bible says.

>
>My belief that a book was inspired to be written by an omnipotent God, who
>could create a Universe in six days, appear as a man if He desired, could
>speak from a burning bush that did not burn up, could be born of a virgin
>girl and take a fleshly body to be the sacrifice for my sins because He was
>the AUTHOR OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, then rise three days later from the grave
>to give me the hope of an Eternal Life with Him. And why the male gender?
>Because in the languages of the people He chose to care for as His own, all
>their names for Him are male gendered; Elohim: ( Male gender) The
>Three-In-One God), JHVH: God Eternal, Abba: (slang) Father, or more
>precisely, Daddy, Eloi: Father.

You have ever right to believe all of what you just wrote. I respect
that right.

To me in this age I find it to be as superstitious as believing in the
tooth fairy, but that is my belief which fortunately in this country I
still have right to.

>
>All my other beliefs hinge on that. To be my spiritual brother, one must
>believe in the God I believe in and what He taught thru His disciples,
>Prophets, and People, the Israelites. If you want to call me "your brother"
>then be my guest, just don't expect me to believe the same because you say
>it.

What a terrible and hateful thing to say to anyone!!!!
We are all brothers and sisters under God's love. There is only one
God. God does not care what you call Her/Him/It nor whether we worship
or not.

How does it feel to believe you are in a religion that hates all non
believers and that God will condemn you, his most precious creation,
to an eternity of damnation if you don't tow the line just so?

Fear based religions have cost the lives of millions and millions of
people down through the ages and continue to in Iraq and other
countries today.

>
>Oh, btw, the God of Abraham and Israel hasn't spoken directly to anyone for
>2000 years, so you believe in a different god than I. Understand now?

No. I find that statement to be totally false. Why would God freely
speak to people and then suddenly shut up? Ridiculous. God
communicates with everyone every single day if we will but listen. I
feel sorry for people who have such a closed mind that they refuse to
hear God's song.

If these dissertations must be so long we need to take them to email.
--
Grandpa Chuck
-ô¿ô-
~

The following information is given with the utmost respect
for the armed forces and civilians who have died in the
current war in Iraq.

According to http://icasualties.org/oif/
The number of Americans killed in Iraq as of Oct 15, 2005 is 1975.


FIVE MORE DEATHS ADDED TODAY!!!
WHEN WILL IT EVER END.
BUSH HAS PUT US IN ANOTHER VIETNAM OR WORSE.


Each star represents one person killed.

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500

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1,000

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1,500

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1,975

United Kingdom = 96

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Other = 102

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**


Iraqi civilian deaths are between 24,000 and 100,000 by all estimates.


.

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