Re: Depression Financial

Juba wrote:
Top posted:

I am definitely not playing devil's advocate. I can't possibly know
all the details of your personal situation and you certainly owe me no
explanations. I just wanted to speak to the larger issues involved and
I'm not attacking you personally.

The tone of your original comments sounded like you were bragging
about how you've avoided paying this debt. You are still saying it's
no big deal if others have to pay.


It isn't to me, because I paid it for others for years as a good paying
customer. I can't feel sorry for credit cardholders being stuck with
something the cc company should eat themselves, out of their profits. Ex:
Who felt sorry for me when someone defaulted on a $20, 000 bill that they
put a home theatre system on? Reality wise, others shouldn't pay, but we all
know that the cc companies make them do it anyhow. If you dispute a payment
you say you don't owe, from an affliate of theirs, and they tell you that
they won't reverse charges, because their unauthorized charges protection
does not apply when you use an affiliate; they pass it on to others. If they
were the least bit ethical, they would reverse the charges ,( and lose their
payback from the affiliate) and take the loss from their own greedy profits,
rather than pass it on to their cardholders. it isn't that it's no big deal
that others have to pay, it's that I did it for years, and no one should
have had to. I cannot, and will not, get upset over the cc companies with
their greedy profits an unethical practices. Nor can I have a great deal of
empathy with those who choose to stay as cardholders, and allow themselves
to get saddled with the cc companies fees.


And you're claiming that you are a victim. It's that kind of attitude
from individuals who can't pay their mortgages that will result in a
massive bailout by pandering politicans. And who's going to pay for
this bailout? Everyone.


Bigggg difference between me and someone getting a mortgage for a home that
they weren't prepared for in the first place.


I, and many other folks resent the idea that we have to pay to bail
out people who took out mortgages they couldn't afford. We see the
interviews on TV of people who claim they didn't know what they were
signing. That it's the bank's fault. That they had no idea that their
house payment was going to go up after a couple of years of a "teaser
rate." That they were taken advantage of, etc. But they weren't taken
advantage of. They took advantage of a wide-open system that allowed
them to buy a house they couldn't afford.


I will agree with you there.


But in their mind it's like, "You let me do this, so it's not my
fault." Well, where's the personal responsibility in that? It's that
kind of attitude that has the government taking away our freedoms and
dictating so much of our personal lives now. I've stated my belief
many times that real freedom means allowing people to make stupid
mistakes. Without that ability, there really is no freedom. But you
can't have real freedom if you also expect the government or some
other entitly to bail you out every time you make a mistake.

I realize that's not your situation. I'm just ranting about whole the
mortgage thing.


Understood. It'n not just the mortgage thing. The elderly lady I mentioned
in my post used her cc's to buy stuff that she couldn't possibly pay back.
While the cc companies should never have extended the credit they did
(before her stroke, she had excellent credit and paid at least the minimum
monthly), she should never have overspent like she did. She paid for gas and
comtributed towards car maintenance and repairs to a fellow tenant. On the
1st of every month, as soon as they got their SSI, the two went on a
shopping spree to WallyWorld or other mass market discount merchandiser.
They ate dinner out too. Every week, they went out to dinner and went
shopping to grocery and more discount stores. She continued running up her
credit. Her daughter was furious, because there is a $500 charge for car
repairs that she used to pay for the other woman's car, that she admitted
the other woman did not reimburse her for. Somebody is paying that $5000
debt, it isn't the broke lady, now in the nursing home. Nor her family, who
is not legally responsible. The cardholders will be stuck with it. Won't be
me, since one of the cards she had, is the very one I disputed charges with,
and closed my acct as a result.


It does sound like you were put between a rock and a hard place, but
CC companies have specific criteria for raising rates on existing
balances. While it can be quite harsh, it's not done arbitrarily.
Everyone who opens a CC account has to abide by the terms and
conditions.

Actually, they can raise rates for any reaon, or no reason whatsoever. My
particular card raised rates accross the board, because they could. I did
get them to lower it when I complained, but a year later, it happened again.
This happened to many cardholders of this company, and I read on a finance
board, that a lot of people dumped their cards, as a result. The common
reason was that the person had a large debt, and was paying only the
minimum, so they were considered at risk for default. Duh! Well, if you
raise the interest, so they can no longer afford the minimum payment, so of
course they will default! Please explain how this logic makes any sense? I
was actually considering bankruptcy at that point. BTW, who pays when people
declare bankruptcy? The creditholders, of course! I was trying hard to _not_
go through bankruptcy.

There has been some movement in Washington to do something about CC
fees and rates, but there will be no changes to the CC companies
rights to increase interest rates when a CC account holder's payments
are delinquent. It's true that this often has the effect of plunging
people further into a downward spiral, but at the same time, CC
companies can't play nanny to every person who gets into a bind. They
try to salvage what they can and sell the rest to collection agencies.


That movement is what McCain was addressing. Those fees actually push many
people into delinquincy. Like a pyramid scheme, the little guy at the bottom
gets screwed by overwhelming fees. He can't keep up with the minmum payments
any longer. So he defaults. They sold my debt to the collection agency,
never heard from any lawyers either. It is now the agency after me, and I
care even less that some collection agency is going to get zilch from me.
The collection agency profits from collecting the debt, not the original
creditor. The agency won't profit from me.


You say, "they don't care about me or my situation?"

Should they? I think that's expecting a lot from businesses that have
a greater responsibility to their other customers who are the best
credit risks and most importantly, to their shareholders.


They *should* care, if they want to keep that person as a creditholder in
good standing, before that creditholder ends up defaulting instead. In my
case, they were warned. They laughed it off, threatened to send their
lawyers after me, and ruin my credit for life. If they don't care, then they
get precisely what they expect to get. If they couldn't care about me, why
should I feel sorry for them if I default? It is beyond my control that they
choose to instead saddle their cardholders with my alleged 'debt', instead
of doing the right thing, and reverse charges. I suspect the lawyers never
came, the court summions never arrived, they did not try to seize the stocks
(which would have paid off close to half what I owed); because their lawyers
said it would be hard to prove I was responsible for the affiliates charges.
This is why my brother advised me to _not_ pay. (More about that further
down)

You say, "Exactly what would you propose I do in such situation."

When this first became a problem you should have sought help from one
of the many non-profits that deal in this sort of thing. They
negotiate with the CC companies for you, they get bad charges
removed, they prevent outrageous interest rates from being charged,
and they prevent your account from going to collection--as long as
you live up to a repayment plan that they negotiate for you with the
CC company.

When it became a problem, is when I got the loan to pay off the majority of
the balance. And the rate I got the loan at, was better than anything an
agency could probably obtain. I am half-way through paying that loan, 2 1/2
years to go. I can afford it precisely because it is fixed at under 5%
interest. Find me a credit agency that could do that, I looked into several,
and none could come even close. I don't recall the exact amount, but the
interest rate was lowered if I agreed to a direct withdrawal plan, Each
month, on or about the 20th, the fixed amount is taken out of my bank
account. I am no longer at the mercy of a credit card company who can raise
interest rates for any, or no reason.


I also don't know how an agency can do anything about disputed charges that
I claim as unauthorized, from one of their affiliates. All they would do, is
negotiate some sort of payoff, when I dispute that I owe them in the first
place. If they want their money, they should have charged back the affiliate
who put the unauthorized charges on my card. But the affiliate gives them a
cut for any business it gets, so it doesn't pay them. It was after this that
I approached my local bank, took out the loan for all but the disputed
charges and the fees and interest and closed my acct with the cc. I had to
go through channels just to get them to do that, as having me suddenly pay
off a huge chunk of credit with lots of money coming to them in future
interest payments, plus my charging future purchases to their card, was
giving them a heart attack. They even mailed me later, with a loophole to
reopen my account, with a lowered interest rate. The problem with them, is
they did too little, too late. It shouldn't take a non-profit credit
counciling agency to fix things.

Which brings up my next question. Who pays when the credit agencies get
interest rates and/or the amount owed lowered? Who eats those costs? Whether
I handle it myself, or go through a non-profit, the cc company is going to
pass their losses on. Since I will never use them again, it thankfully won't
be me, who was a good paying customer for a number of years, and paid others
defaults, until the car accident. I wonder too, how the cc companies offer
these low-interest starter rates and interest-free balance tranfer trials?
If you think they subtract the potenntial prifits as losses from their own
profits, I've got bridge for sale. I'm willing to bet that the new
cardholders are getting those benefits at the expense of their long-term
cardholders paying yet higher fees and interest.


I refuse to pay the disputed charges, and sought financial advice from a
brother who works in the finance industry. He agrees that they can't come
after me to collect, and to simply not pay the disputed amount. They should
consider themselves lucky that I took out the loan, and paid off the
majority, rather than declaring bankruptcy. I did what I could best do,
given the circumstances. I cannot, and will not, care about the CC company
being stuck with charges for services from an affiliate that I did not use,
that they were unwilling to charge back. And I will not feel guilty because
they are passing the default on to others. I cannot control them, or what
they do. I can only rid myself of them. I would love to name names, and be
more specific with details, but I think it better to be mum on those
details. You might have enough from what I wrote, to figure it out by
Googling a few keyword. I was prepared to print out everything I had saved
regarding them and a certain affiliate. The complaints are numerous. If it
came to court, I was quite prepared to argue why I was not responsible for
this debt.


In 2 1/2 years, I will be completely debt free. I will either get by on
income and assets, or I won't. I have survived, so far. even with rising
food and fuel costs, I have not been short most months. Ocassionally I have
trouble with a utility bill, but they, unlike the cc companies, are willing
to work with me. they, unlike the cc companies, can and DO care about my
situation. I used to use cc's to pay utilities. Now, I contact the utility
if I am having trouble with a bill. They ask me how much I can pay, and when
can I pay it. I am looking forward to paying off that loan, it will be
exhilirating to no longer be at the mercy and whim of the cc companies. With
my lousy credit, due to default, they won't want me, and I don't want them,
I have a $500 line of credit at my bank, if I need it, and the bit of assets
in the stocks from MetLife in case of a future expensive emergency. I never
had debt in my life, until after that auto accident. My experience with the
cc companies has been nothing but negative ever since. My eyes have really
been opened. As long as I was one of those who paid in full monthly, and
never accrued debt, everrything was fine and dandy. Don't ever have an
emergency and not be able to keep up with mounting debt. Credt card
companies do not care, do not care, do not care. The web is full of the
horror stories.


PS The reason why you and I have had are issues in the past is because a)
You were a bully and b) You constantly stood up for a certain poster who's
integrity I questioned. You're not the nasty pr*ck you once were (Hey, even
Zombie has mellowed), and your eyes have been opened regarding that poster.
So, I would like to think we have managed to co-exist peacefully, and
perhaps can continue to do so.

--
Carol
Contessa of Consternation
Known to leave foes discombobulated

Autistic Spectrum Code v.1.0
AS? d- s--:+ a+ c+ p+ t-- f S+ p@- e+ h- r- n+(-) i+ P m-() M

http://www32.brinkster.com/ascdecode/
"I have run rings around you logically". Monty Python

Email at clay_pots_47@xxxxxxxxxx, removing the 'nospam' and replacing
with 'msn'.


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