Re: Congress to increase gas tax by 10 cents?

"MZ" <mark@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"razorNW" <RUkidding@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:36:48 -0400, "El Guapo" <plethora@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

"MZ" <mark@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"razorNW" <donteventry@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:23:37 -0400, "MZ" <mark@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"CalC" <calcarpenter1@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Jul 20, 1:33 am, Tropical Son <Tropical...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/19/news/economy/gastax.ap/index.htm?sect...
** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**

brilliant dont cut spend too f'n simple just riase taxes smore.
Brilliant!!!!

And they're not even pretending it has anything to do with the budget.
They're acknowledging that the highway fund is basically a make-work
project, and that cutting costs is bad because companies will lose
their
overbloated government contracts, not because the roads actually need
it.

Perhaps you don't use the roads, which might explain why you don't
consider them in need of work. This kind of tax is effectively a use
tax. Those people who are buying gas are contributing to the
maintenance of roads (which, by the way, have fallen into considerable
disrepair in recent years--Minneapolis anyone?) that they use. The
only complaint you might have is whether you get a proportional
benefit. Were it a broad-based tax with no specific targest, I would
agree with you both.

In this political season with this economy, a gas tax is much more
sensible than a gas tax holiday. The roads need work and the amount
is small enough that considering that the bubble is about to burst on
oil futures speculation, it will be lost in the decline in gas prices,
but will also serve as a higher floor price that will also tend to
dampen demand (better to keep cars off the road and push behavior
toward more economical methods).

The highway trust fund feeds money for projects that are co-funded by
state taxes/bonds and toll revenues on a matching basis. There are
plenty of projects on the board--legitimate ones, not make-work--that
a tax holiday would effectively kill or delay putting many people out
of work, drawing down income tax revenue, and raising unemployment
payouts. You should be less concerned about us paying for our needs
from tax sources then the alternative of borrowing from the Chinese or
Saudis and having your children and grandchilren pay for it out of
their taxes (and the reduced economic competitiveness of having a huge
debt service cost).

I use them more than most. And they are NOT efficiently maintained. I
live in Upstate NY, and it's become quite a joke around here -- tons of
road work, most of which is completely unnecessary. In Massachusetts,
people are well aware of the wastefulness as well, with stretches
almost
completely unmaintained (poor quality, yet still drivable) and, on the
other hand, billion dollar boondoggles elsewhere. The politicians
don't
even hide the fact that much, if not most, of the work is unnecessary.
That's no longer even the nature of the debate, as this article pointed
out.

Certainly, there's work to be done, and a certain level of maintenance
is
obviously warranted. But roads, like many of the government's
undertakings, are simply not managed well and are full of politicians
fighting to bring money and jobs into their districts or states. It's
no
longer about upkeep and useful construction, if it ever was. They
don't
need MORE money -- they have plenty. They need to spend the money they
have wisely. More income will just be wasted and they'll inevitably be
crying for more.

But I agree that a holiday doesn't make any sense either. They need
long
term spending plans and better management. A tax holiday will only
result
in deficit spending.

Federal funding can also lead to poor local decisions. For instance, the
Federal government (and politicians) generally focus on large projects.
It's not uncommon for local governments to spend money building something
of
a lower priority, just because they can get matching funds from the
government. It's often a "use it or lose it" proposition, so they have
to
make a choice - put a lesser amount of money where it really needs to go,
or
build the bridge with funds provided from the Federal government. Guess
which one wins out?

There's always going to be a gaming of the system. And in many cases,
suboptimal decision will be made. We are dealing with a macro problem
that requires a large pool of money to be distributed efficiently. I'm
all for improving the process so that money goes where it's really
needed. Good luck with the politics there.

I grew up in MA and know all too well when I see roadwork with 5 cops
standing around on OT with a DD's box not even concerning themselves
with traffic control. The politics there include cronyism, union
self-interest, and a very good understanding of how to claim a bigger
share than one deserves (Big Dig?). BTW, 38% of MA roads are rated as
being in poor or marginal condition as compared to 61% in CA (both
2007).

I live in the west now where roads made settlement and expansion
possible and now suffer from decades of neglect. As opposed to the
east where major roads were build after a mature local network had
been established, the major roads are the primary and only means of
passage in many areas. But I digress.

The specifics of the article aside, the matter is whether reacting to
a 10 cent hike in the federal gas tax should be met with the usual
"cut spending instead" rhetoric. From a broad perspective the highway
trust fund serves a necessary purpose. Even if you make it more
effective by cleaning out the graft and poor decisions, it will still
be underfunded. The last increase in the tax was 15 years ago and for
some strange reason the tax was not indexed for inflation, leaving it
a political hot potato, while miles traveled on highways has increased
39% during that time and new miles constructed only increased 8%. The
math is there. I say pick on the taxes (if you can find them) that
subsidize the oil companies during periods of record (in all of
history) profits.


There are two things that I take issue with. First, the tax has increased
substantially, far beyond the levels of inflation. We're talking about,
what, a 400% increase in revenue from the gas tax since a decade ago? If
they're currently underfunded, I suspect a few possibilities -- the
primary means of funding the roadways does not come from the gas tax;
road maintenance is far more expensive and sophisticated than it was
(doubtful, to that extent); or waste is a hell of a lot worse than it was
10 years ago.

Also, I don't agree that gaming is inevitable to such an extent. Of
course, by the very nature of democracy, politicians are always going to
make the politically favorable decision over the useful one. But I think
a very strong case can be made that as accountability travels further and
further away from the localities, it gets a lot worse. It's pretty well
established that that's the hallmark of federal taxation and allocation of
funds, despite the leveling of the playing field it's supposed to provide.

Inspired by another poster:

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GREAT POST MZ!!!


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Congress to increase gas tax by 10 cents?
    ... not because the roads actually need it. ... This kind of tax is effectively a use ... The highway trust fund feeds money for projects that are co-funded by ... are simply not managed well and are full of politicians ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: Congress to increase gas tax by 10 cents?
    ... brilliant dont cut spend too f'n simple just riase taxes smore. ... not because the roads actually need it. ... This kind of tax is effectively a use ... The highway trust fund feeds money for projects that are co-funded by ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: Congress to increase gas tax by 10 cents?
    ... Perhaps you don't use the roads, which might explain why you don't ... This kind of tax is effectively a use ... The highway trust fund feeds money for projects that are co-funded by ... are simply not managed well and are full of politicians ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: Congress to increase gas tax by 10 cents?
    ... Perhaps you don't use the roads, which might explain why you don't ... This kind of tax is effectively a use ... The highway trust fund feeds money for projects that are co-funded by ... are simply not managed well and are full of politicians ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: OT - Tesco Boooo!
    ... income off to other countries to avoid paying as much tax as possible. ... treatment by the politicians and chief officers of such organisations ... because they are cronies with vested business interests. ... dined very expensivley in their quest to deliver 'value for money' to ...
    (uk.media.tv.misc)
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