Re: Thank God for the US Congress!


"MZ" <mark@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Polarhound" <fu3ot37fh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Polarhound wrote:
MZ wrote:
"Polarhound" <fu3ot37fh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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El Guapo wrote:
"Danny Boy®" <DannyBoysGuinness@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Imagine how much we'd be getting screwed if they didnt "grill" the
oil
execs a few weeks ago?

3 cheers for our elected leaders!!!
You really want gas prices to come down? Forget about the couple of
pennies on the dollar that you might be able to wring out of the oil
companies. Increasing supply is about the only way to do it, and that
means opening up new areas to drilling, and looking for alternative
energy sources that are actually cost effective.
The price could drop 20-30% in a short time, not to mention drop FOOD
prices just as much, if ethanol (which pollutes MORE than the
alternatives) was taken out of gasoline.

Is that true? Why is that?


Ethanol from food crops (corn, etc.) take 28% more energy to harvest,
transport and process than regular crude. The resulting additional
pollution, combined with the higher NOx emissions of ethanol, more than
offsets any minimal (and still unproven) environmental benefits.

On the food front:

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2007-06/america-headed-food-shortage

A recent study conducted by the Center for Agricultural and Rural
Development at Iowa State University (which receives funding from
grocery manufacturers and livestock producers) reported that U.S.
ethanol production could consume more than half of U.S. corn, wheat and
coarse grains by 2012, driving up food prices and causing shortages. The
study estimates that booming ethanol production has already raised U.S.
food prices by $47 per person annually. In Mexico, protests have already
erupted over the high price of corn tortillas, a staple food in the
local diet.

-

Let's see what the Commies have to say as well:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-05/07/content_8120866.htm

BEIJING, May 7 (Xinhua) -- Biofuels, derived from crops and once a
promising alternative to petroleum, have come under increasing fire in
the face of a global food shortage that has spurred chaos in dozens of
countries.

Many argue that by diverting grain and oilseed crops from dinner
tables to fuel tanks, biofuels are pushing up world food prices and
endangering the poor.

Moreover, a large proportion of rain forests and wetlands featuring
rich biodiversity have been bulldozed and burned to make ay for crops
used to produce corn ethanol, soy bio-diesel and palm oil.

African Development Bank (ADB) President Donald Kaberuka has said that
up to 135 million Africans have been deeply affected by the rise in food
prices.

He said food shortage in Africa now amounts to 36 million tons, and
12 African countries, in particular Guinea, Gambia, Djibouti, Egypt,
Sudan and Chad, have been the hardest hit.

Rice prices in the Asian market have almost tripled this year, with
countries like Indonesia and Vietnam imposing curbs on food exports in a
bid to secure domestic food safety.

An adviser to UN chief Ban Ki-moon urged the United States and Europe
on Monday to cut down on biofuel production, or risk a worsening of the
food crisis affecting millions of the world's poor.

"We need to cut back significantly on our biofuel programs," Jeffrey
Sachs, special adviser to UN Secretary-General Ban on anti-poverty
goals, said at a press conference in Brussels.


-


As for how much more the ethanol is costing the end consumer, this link
has a chart comparing gasoline and ethanol per-gallon prices monthly
from 01/2005 to 02/2007:

http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=1490

Not only does the ethanol add a significant cost to gasoline, it also is
3.4% less efficient resulting in worse mileage:

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/automotive/view.bg?articleid=1091934&srvc=home&position=also
Need more costs for consumers? Apparently the ethanol mix is eating
away at fiberglass gas tanks:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-boat15apr15,0,2271802.story

In summation, ethanol-mania is causing:

1. Higher fuel prices
2. Higher food prices
3. Worldwide food shortages
4. Rainforests and wetlands being destroyed
5. Eating away marine fuel tanks

Oh yeah.. The Guvmint is shelling out a $0.51/gallon subsidy to ENTICE
fuel refiners to use MORE ethanol.


Need more, or does this suffice?

Here is a bit more reading:

http://zfacts.com/p/436.html

Some Ethanol proponents claim it doesn't hurt their mileage, but this
goes against physics, and you will not find the ethanol lobby making such
fraudulent claims--they could be sued. But just to be sure, zFacts
analyzed all of EPA's ethanol mileage tests for one year and, big
surprise, ethanol gave exactly 2/3 the mileage of gasoline.


I'm confused. [Sorry, I haven't gotten a chance to look at the links
yet...] Are you referring to ethanol as a substitute for gasoline? Or
ethanol somehow being added to gasoline? Because that was my impression
from your original post.

Are you saying if they stopped trying to use ethanol as an alternative
fuel, gas prices would drop 20-30%? If so, can you give me the abridged
version of why that is? I'm not going to get a chance to check out your
links tonight.

Seems pretty clear to me that ethanol as biofuel is doing nothing to help
the atmosphere (global warming) and may be harming it by creating more
harmful gases than the oil it replaces. It is expenseive and especially so
when you include the 50 cent or so subsidy to farmers (which is wholly
unncessary). It's unquestionably resulting less food production in an
already globally strapped system with an exploding world population. And I
agree with the abovce comment that even the rainforests are suffering - I
haven't seen the data myself, but the overwhelming sense I get is that so
called "biofuels" are now so profitable that vast expanses of rainforests
are being cleared to plant crops for the purposes of adding ethanol to
gasoline. Yikes.

And in the end, even if it had the intended effect (which it doesn't seem
to) it is still nothing more than a distraction from developing a truly
alternative fuel source. Typical politics is to distract from the bigger
picture which is what is being done here.


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Midwest Floods Push Grain Prices Higher, Weigh on Ethanol - WSJ
    ... producers and even catfish farms as grain prices continue to soar. ... push food prices up by 9% a year through 2012, ... ethanol producers nationwide. ... much to the official cost of living index as one might think. ...
    (soc.retirement)
  • Re: Thank God for the US Congress!
    ... You really want gas prices to come down? ... pollution, combined with the higher NOx emissions of ethanol, more than ... driving up food prices and causing shortages. ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: The fallout from our ethanol blunder
    ... Corn is the primary source of ethanol in the United States. ... grain and soybean prices have gone up 180 percent in the last ... This is happening at a time when the world's stock of basic food stocks ... farmers would use chemicals to reach the optimum level ...
    (soc.retirement)
  • Re: Thank God for the US Congress!
    ... You really want gas prices to come down? ... alternatives) was taken out of gasoline. ... Ethanol from food crops take 28% more energy to harvest, ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: Gasoline prices going up
    ... None of the things you mention has anything to do with high gas prices ... and the time gasoline is available at the service station. ... ethanol was forced on us long before the Obama Administration ... Plus I doubt if the refineries could go back to leaded formulas ...
    (misc.transport.road)