Re: Trade Samuel Before The Draft


"TXRhody" <stacks@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"AllYou!" <idaman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"TXRhody" <stacks@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Of course not. But there's a big difference between considering a
lesser offer and MAKING a lesser offer.

Focus. That's not the point. You said that the other teams
already know what the Pats want because they put the franchise tag
on him, and I'm simply showing you how silly that is because the
franchise tag may not at all be indicative of what the Pats are
willing to take for him, either more or less. Do you now concede
that point? (assuming that you can still remember what it is)

You should focus. I never ever said that the Patriots would not be
willing to accept less than two first round draft picks. I have been
very consistent here. You're just not intelligent enough to follow
the conversation.

<sigh> Must I show you your own words yet once again?

You: "The other teams already know what the Patriots want. In case
you missed it,
the Patriots tendered Samuel as a non-exclusive franchise free agent,
meaning they want two first round draft choices. There, black and
white. "

As you said, there it is, in black and white. Are you a girl? You
debate like a girl, so I think you're a girl.

You're putting words in my mouth.

There's no way to do that because you've got so many of them coming
out.

I never said that the other teams "have no idea" what Samuel
wants.

<sigh> Just like you claimed that you never said that you were
arguing that AS wasn't 'effectively' a free agent when I was able
to prove that you said exactly that? Must I go back and quote you
again? OK, here it is:

Me: For your "for your logic to make sense, the Colts would be
making that deal with no idea of what AS wants"

You: "EXACTLY!!"

I hope that helps.

And you thought there was no way to put words in my mouth. You find
a way. Good for you!

Are you denying that you actually posted those words? Why not be a
man (woman) about it and admit that you said what you're not trying so
hard to deny that you said?

In fact, your argument is self-defeating. Of course they have an
idea what he wants and they're apparently not interested. What I'm
saying is that if those teams are in fact interested, they can
find out what he wants from the horse's mouth. They don't have to
sit and wait for the Patriots to offer a trade.

<sigh>

It's exasperating arguing when you're wrong, isn't it?

I wouldn't know, but I'll take your word for it.

While those teams can find out for themselves what AS wants, they
can't know what the Pats want without talking to the Pats. And
whereas it's the Pats who hold the keys to the kingdom in this
case, then Samual is right to ask the Pats to put a deal together
which with they can live. How is As supposed to work out a deal if
the team doesn't know what the Pats want?

The interested team makes a trade offer to the Pats, that's how.

After they go to all of the trouble of negotiating a deal with AS?
That's just silly. They're just not gonna do that when what they're
willing to pay AS might very well be dependent upon what the Pats
want, much less go through all of the pain-in-the-ass to negotiate a
contract that may be a non-starter anyway.

Like I said, if there is some evidence out there that there is a
team out there who wants to pay Samuel what he wants and went to
the Patriots with a REASONABLE trade offer and the Patriots
refused, then I'm obviously wrong.

And you're also wrong in thinking that there's some cut and dry way
to determine which team approached which. These teams are in
constant contact with each other, and so it'd be no trouble for
either the Pats or the other team to broach the subject. But where
it's the Pats who hold all the cards, including knowing what they'd
want for compensation, then Samuel's request makes perfect sense.

He's simply asking them to accept them to set a price that other
teams would be willing to pay.

That sentence doesn't make any sense. You're saying that Samuel is
asking the Patriots to accept something to set a price that other
teams will pay. Are you talking about Samuel's price or the
Patriots' price? And what is this "them" that Samuel is asking the
Patriots to accept?

I'm saying that Samuel is simply asking the Pats to accept a
reasonable price, and not set the price so high that no other team
could reasonably be expected to pay it. This really is too much for
you, isn't it.

But I have not seen any evidence of that. It's hard to say the
Patriots did anything wrong without the details. Well, not for
you, but for most people.

This isn't a matter of right or wrong by the Pats. Focus. You
said that Samuel is wrong to request a trade because "that's not
how the franchise tag works", and what you fail to understand is
that it works however any team of player is willing to make it
work, and in this case, the request is perfectly reasonable because
the player is simply asking the team to accept them to set a price
that other teams would be willing to pay.

I didn't say Samuel was "wrong," I said it was foolish.

No, you said that he's asking the Pats to do something that doesn't
work in that way. You said "The franchise tag doesn't work that way"
in referring to what Samuel was asking. How can you deny that you're
saying that Samuel is wrong when you clearly said that he was asking
the Pats to do something that doesn't work the way he wants them to
work?


It's an ambiguous request for the Patriots to do something that
either isn't in their best interest or if it becomes in their best
interest (a reasonable offer from another team), they'll do it
anyway whether he requested it or not.

Well of course it's ambiguous. He's not asking them to accept a
specific deal. He's only asking them to try to trade him for a
realistic price.

If Samuel's agent found a team willing to pay him what he wants and
interested enough to negotiate with the Patriots about compensation,
then there would be a trade offer the Patriots could accept or
reject. To my knowledge, there is no such trade offer, so he must be
requesting the Patriots to make their own trade offer. It is FOOLISH
for Samuel to expect the patriots to hold a fire sale for a player
they want to keep.

Why do you think As is asking the Pats to hold a fire sale? Do you
have any links to support that claim? All I heard him do is ask them
to accomodate his desire to play for another team that might be
willing to pay what he's asking for.

You say the Patriots hold "the key," which I assume is the right
of first refusal. I completely agree with that. Actually, what I
mean to say is "NO SHIT!

Then why are you so confused about why Samuel is requesting that
they use that key? How can Samuel put a deal together when he only
holds one of the keys, and the Pats have a copy of it?

I am not confused. I am very clear about how foolish Samuel's
statement was. Samuel holds his key. If he wants to open a door to
leave, then he should use his key. He should not expect the Patriots
to use their key to make his exit easier.

I'll try to explain this so even you can understand. Samuel can't
play for anyone else unless the Pats agree. So in that sense, as far
as Samuel is concerned, it's the Pats who get to decide if he'll play
for anyone else. In that context, he's simply asking the Pats to
pursue a trade of his rights at a reasonable cost to the other team.
That's a very reasonable request. for all you know, Samuel has
already tested the waters with other teams. But he knows that no
matter how much testing he does, or how much negotiating he does,
nothing is gonna happen unless the Pats agree to a reasonable price.
And so Samuel is asking the team to agree to a reasonable price.

I just don't see where you can say from any of that "that's not how it
works". As I said early on, "it" can work any number of ways.

You can't trade what you don't have." But the scenario that makes
the most sense is the one where Samuel's agent finds an interested
team, works out the contract details, and THEN THAT TEAM contacts
the Patriots about compensation.

Maybe that makes sense in your world, but why would a team go to
all of that trouble if they have no idea it the Pats would even
accept 2 firsts, or if the Pats were willing to accept even less,
or if they'd be willing to accept an alternative (e.g., a player
and/ or draft choices)?
That makes no sense. What's more likely is for a team to know what
the price they'd have to pay the Pats for compensation before they
get deeply involved with negotiations that might all be for nothing
anyway.

As and his agents are smart enough to know that teams are
constantly in contact with each other, and so he's asking them to
let it be known that they'd accept a reasonable offer in exchange
for trading his rights. I don't know why you think that's not how
it works, but it's certainly one very viable and reasonable way for
it to work.

So now you're saying that the teams are constantly in contact with
each other, but Samuel is requesting that the Patriots "let it be
known" that they'll take less than two firsts.

LOL! When did I ever say that two firsts was the price? IIRC, I'M
the one who's saying that two first may very well not be the price.



You think that Samuel is really saying that the Patriots should hold
a press conference to let all the other team owners know exactly
what they'll accept in a trade. Not only are you reading a whole lot
into his simple (to most) statement, but you also expect the
Patriots to give away a whole lot of negotiating power just because
a franchise player made a request.

I knew it. You are a girl. How did you ever get from what I said,
which is that the Pats are in constant contact with other teams, and
that it'd be an easy thing to float the idea of trading Samuel with
any of those teams in the normal course of business, to the silliness
that what I'm really saying is that they should hold a press
conference?

I'm simply pointing out that contrary to what YOU suggested that it's
be a whole lot of trouble (i.e., "do all the work", "call all 31 other
teams, etc...) for the Pats to see if some other team would be willing
to pay whatever price they might want, that it's actually quite an
easy thing for them to do.

The Patriots don't have to put out a full-page ad in the newspaper
offering to sell the player that they really want to keep, at a
huge discount no less, just because Samuel's agent hasn't found an
interested team, nor is it in the interest of the Patriots to do
so.

NO SHIT!!!!! Focus. This isn't about what might be going on, this
about your claim that Samuel doesn't know how the system works, and
I've just proven to you over and over again that what he's asking
is a very reasonable way for the system to work in this case.

Now you're putting words in my mouth an Samuel's. Nice job.

Are you now denying thatg you ever said that Samual asked the Pats to
do somethng that doesn't work that way? Because if you are, I can
show where you said exactly that.

And btw, what words do you imagine that I put in Samuel's mouth when I
never said that he said anything except for asking to be traded? Do
you not think he asked to be traded?



I hope that helps to answer your question "Am I missing something
here?" You are.

Yeah, I'm missing all the fantasy details you fabricated. Thanks for
filling me in. You have expounded greatly on Samuel's simple
statement. You should be very proud.

How have I done any such thing? All I've ever said is that he asked
to be traded, and that his request was entirely reasonable, and that
your claim that what's he's asking is contrary to how the franchise
tag works is simply as foolish as everything else you've posted here.
Where's the expounding of Samuels's statement in that?


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Trade Samuel Before The Draft
    ... not at all be indicative of what the Pats are willing to take for him, ... "The other teams already know what the Patriots want. ... the Patriots tendered Samuel as a non-exclusive franchise free agent, ... He's simply asking them to accept them to set a price that other teams ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: Trade Samuel Before The Draft
    ... it, the Patriots tendered Samuel as a non-exclusive franchise free agent, ... meaning they want two first round draft choices. ... The Pats put the lesser restrictive of the two franchise ... the Patriots to offer a trade. ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: Trade Samuel Before The Draft
    ... what the Pats want because they put the franchise tag on him, ... Patriots to offer a trade. ... Samuel's request makes perfect sense. ... You're saying that Samuel is asking ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: Trade Samuel Before The Draft
    ... the franchise tag may not at all be indicative of what the Pats ... "The other teams already know what the Patriots want. ... teams knew what the Pats want for Samuel when you actually said "in ... He's simply asking them to accept them to set a price that other ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: Trade Samuel Before The Draft
    ... reasonable price, and not set the price so high that no other team ... The Pats' "realistic price" may be ... Jets make a deal for and with Samuel, and in the process give up their ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)