Re: OT Welcome to the New Middle Ages

In article <4668a66a$0$30640$4c368faf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, $Bill
<news@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



GOP in 2008 wrote:



I guess this is the sticking point for me. It's difficult for me
to imagine time not existing.



And I suppose it was difficult for a Neanderthal to imagine driving
around in a Corvette or 747. It's all relative to our brain size and
how far science has managed to progress at any point in time. We do
keep evolving.



This is why I don't think I will ever be an atheist. The mere fact
that you admit that we currently don't know the answers to these
questions to me suggests that one should at least keep the possibility,
no matter how slight, of a higher being open.



Keep any possibilities you want open - just don't try to infer from
zero evidence that something you perceive is possible actually exists
or is fact.


Not only am I not saying that, but I thought I was saying the
exact opposite - that religion (creation) is *not* fact, so I tend to
lean toward science (evolution).



Atheists are just agnostics with more conviction on the
show me side; religious people are agnostics with more conviction on
the faith side.


I guess you and I have different definitions for "atheist" and
"agnostic." To me, an atheist is someone who has researched the issue
and has come to the definite conclusion that a God does not exist. An
agnostic, which is what I believe I am, is someone who is not
religious, but who believes in the *POSSIBILITY* (no matter how slight)
of a higher being.





I personally find faith based belief to be pretty
much unfounded and see it only as a crutch to those that can't fathom
things the way the actually are. That and a brain washing by those
that want to control your actions in this life by scaring you about
what will happen in the next.


That's how I see it as well.


Did you ever wonder what happened to the god Ra or Zeus or Thor or
Jupiter ? Does anyone still worship them ? Or did we dismiss them
as we evolved past their quaintness.


Yes, I've wondered about these previous gods as well. It's
probably the strongest reason why I'm not religious - that they so
clearly demonstrate how religion is man-made.





When I said "started from nothing," what I meant was that the
"massively dense something" must have come from something. How could
the entire mass of the universe just all of a sudden be created from
nothing? Regardless of whether there were past universes created by
past Big Bangs, the original Big Bang must have come from something.

It's just our small brains that can't fathom this - you need to wait
a few more centuries and let your offspring figure it out and report
back.


Could be...




It doesn't matter how many National Geographic specials I watch.
Until science can explain how the entire mass of the universe came from
the original Big Bang, I guess I'll just leave the option of a higher
being open.


Just because you don't understand some basic law of science doesn't
mean you have to immediately pass that misunderstanding on as something
supernatural. If you were to go back in time a million years, you
would be god to the humanoids you encountered.


I'm not immediately passing my misunderstanding on as something
supernatural. I'm simply leaving the supernatural option open - there
might be a supernatural explanation, there might not be. It seems to me
that the only other option would be to declare yourself an atheist and
deny the supernatural option altogether. Is that what you do?





Intelligent people can also believe in the possibility of both,
until the explanation for one becomes certain. Since all we have is
speculation on both sides, I'll choose to keep both options open.

You don't believe in possibilities, you just take them into account.
Believing requires faith - often where there is no proof.


Really? Do you believe it's possible for the Lakers to win the
championship next year? I guess your answer would be "no," since that
belief would require faith. And since you probably don't have much
faith in the Lakers right now, I guess your answer would be no. On the
other hand, my answer would be "of course." It's possible they will
make the playoffs, like they did this year. And it's possible that the
key players of their opponents in the playoffs and championships will
get injured, allowing them to win. It's a small possibility, just like
my belief in the possibility of a God. Nevertheless, the possibility
exists. No "faith" required.




All you can do if you see more than one possibility is say you don't know
and hope someday you will - that would pretty much make you an agnostic
which would show at least you have some common sense.


I thought it was pretty obvious that I was an agnostic. I didn't
realize that I was going to have to spell it out for you. I just
thought that, when I kept saying that I was going to "leave the
religious option open," you would be able to figure that out on your
own.


Atheists are just agnostics that see no reason to think that something supernatural
is an alternative.


Again, I disagree with your definition. All the atheists I've ever
heard are adamant about their conclusion that there is no God. If
there's even the slightest doubt, that makes you agnostic.


---
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