Re: OT - Iraq's My Lai


"Dewey" <dewey3k@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1143144769.514727.86440@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Michael-NC wrote:
"Jabba" <jabbathechandler@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1143079265.010684.38400@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

This is really horrible news.

The absolute BEST way to support our troops would be to send them home
now, so they won't have to continue to participate in massacres.

I would hope that people consider the source of the article _before_ they
make a judgement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Cockburn

The "other side" has already been told. The truth is probably somewhere
in
the middle but does anyone really believe that American troops shot women
and children in the back of the head?

When put in extreme situations, even the very best of us might act
irrationally. So yes, I do believe that it happens. There is nothing
magical about the people who volunteer for our armed forces. That said
I will reiterate that I blame the circumstances they are put in - and
those who put them there based on lies. Like the *** in chief who
said 2 days ago that "if I didn't believe we could succeed [in Iraq] I
wouldn't be there."

There are reports that these people dies of multiple wounds, which, if true,
would suggest they died in the hail of bullets that came from US soldiers
who considered themselves under attack. Could a scenario like that be
avoided. Of course but as you mentioned, these are extreme circumstances.
Let us not forget that there is a war going on over there and in a war zone
that's rife with IED's, when one goes off, all hell breaks loose. Of course
it's tragic that the situation deteriorated into this.

As for US Marines executing innocent civilians, I'm not going to leap to
judgment because Pat Cockburn wrote an article stating there is an
investigation. Brandon, part of the reason I started posting here in 2002
were posts like the one from the OP. There seems to an abundance of extreme
viewpoints in this newsgroup and I was foolish enough to engage many posters
on their obviously, strongly-held believes. I purposely worded a mild
rebuttal to this post, just to see what would happen. I didn't really want
to because I was pretty sure what would happen.

It happened...

"Are you out of your fucking mind? They shot them in the back of the
head because the gas ovens aren't ready yet."

"Just what species of *** do you think proudly wears U.S. battle
fatigues these days?"

"Yes, every single US soldier has 'massacred' women and children. I think
it's part of basic training."


Yep... I was right. There was no need for me to try and inject reason and
measured response and not expect the nut-squad to scurry forth from under
the baseboards. This is why I stopped posting here, I got caught up in
arguing with extremists and I would have spent my time more wisely banging
my head against a concrete wall. FWIW, I don't put you in that category. All
I said in the post is consider the source; a foreign reporter who has an
extremely negative view of the US action in Iraq. It's hardly an AP or
Reuters story and people should consider other sources before they judge.

Here's another version of the same story.

http://www.factivism.com/

US Troops Accused of Killing 11 Civillians, 6 Month Old Infant, 75
Year Old Woman
Iraqi police report details civilians' deaths at hands of U.S. troops
By Matthew Schofield
Knight Ridder Newspapers
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi police have accused American troops of executing
11 people, including a 75-year-old woman and a 6-month-old infant, in the
aftermath of a raid last Wednesday on a house about 60 miles north of
Baghdad.

The villagers were killed after American troops herded them into a
single room of the house, according to a police document obtained by Knight
Ridder Newspapers. The soldiers also burned three vehicles, killed the
villagers' animals and blew up the house, the document said.

A U.S. military spokesman, Major Tim Keefe, said that the U.S.
military has no information to support the allegations and that he had not
heard of them before a reporter brought them to his attention Sunday.

"We're concerned to hear accusations like that, but it's also highly
unlikely that they're true," he said. He added that U.S. forces "take every
precaution to keep civilians out of harms' way. The loss of innocent life,
especially children, is regrettable."

Accusations that U.S. troops have killed civilians are commonplace in
Iraq, though most are judged later to be unfounded or exaggerated. Navy
investigators announced last week that they were looking into whether
Marines intentionally killed 15 Iraqi civilians - four of them women and
five of them children - during fighting last November.

But the report of the killings in the Abu Sifa area of Ishaqi, eight
miles north of the city of Balad, is unusual because it originated with
Iraqi police and because Iraqi police were willing to attach their names to
it.

The report, which also contained brief descriptions of other events in
the area, was compiled by the Joint Coordination Center in Tikrit, a
regional security center set up with United States military assistance. An
Iraqi police colonel signed the report, which was based on communications
from local police.

Brig. Gen. Issa al-Juboori, who heads the center, said that his office
assembled the report on Thursday and that it accurately reflects the
direction of the current police investigation into the incident.

He also said he knows the officer heading the investigation. "He's a
dedicated policeman, and a good cop," he said when reached by phone in
Tikrit from Baghdad. "I trust him."

The case involves a U.S. raid conducted, according to the official
U.S. account, in response to a tip that a member of al-Qaida in Iraq was at
the house.

Neighbors, interviewed by a special correspondent for Knight Ridder,
agreed that the al-Qaida member was at the house. They said he was visiting
the home's owner, a relative. The neighbors said the homeowner was a
schoolteacher.

According to police, military and eyewitness accounts, U.S. forces
approached the house at around 2:30 a.m. and a firefight ensued. By all
accounts, in addition to exchanging gunfire with someone inside the house,
U.S. troops were supported by helicopter gunships, which fired on the house.

But the accounts differ on what took place after the firefight.

According to the U.S. account, the house collapsed because of the
heavy fire. When U.S. forces searched the rubble they found one man, the
al-Qaida suspect, alive. He was arrested. They also found a dead man they
believed to be connected to al-Qaida, two dead women and a dead child.

But the report filed by the Joint Coordination Center, which was based
on a report filed by local police, said U.S. forces entered the house while
it was still standing.

"The American forces gathered the family members in one room and
executed 11 persons, including five children, four women and two men," the
report said. "Then they bombed the house, burned three vehicles and killed
their animals."

The report identified the dead by name, giving their ages. The two men
killed were 22 and 28. Of the women, one was 22, another was 23, a third was
30 and the fourth was 75. Two of the children were 5 years old, two were 3,
and the fifth was 6 months old, the document said.

The report was signed by Col. Fadhil Muhammed Khalaf, who was
described in the document as the assistant chief of the Joint Coordination
Center.

A local police commander, Lt. Col. Farooq Hussain, interviewed by a
Knight Ridder special correspondent in Ishaqi, said autopsies at the
hospital in Tikrit "revealed that all the victims had bullet shots in the
head and all bodies were handcuffed." Efforts to reach hospital spokesmen
Sunday were unsuccessful.

Keefe, the U.S. military spokesman, said that he had seen photographs
of the victims and had not seen handcuffs, which caused him to doubt the
validity of the report.

He said, however, that he has no reason to doubt the body count
provided by local police.

"We conducted a preliminary investigation," he said. "They were the
investigating officers on the ground."

Keefe said that he didn't know which U.S. unit conducted the raid. An
official account of the raid provided Sunday by the military also did not
mention the unit involved by name.

Ibraheem Hirat Khalaf, whose brother Faiz owned the house and was
among the dead, said he watched and heard the assault from his home 100
yards away. He said that U.S. troops used six missiles from helicopters to
destroy the house as they were leaving.

Abu Hijran, 38, and a neighbor, said those in the house were liked and
respected, though the wanted al-Qaida member was not as well known.

Rasheed Thair, an employee of Ishaqi, said that the town was in a
state of shock over the killings.

"Everyone attended the funeral," he said. "We want the Americans to
give an explanation for this horrible crime which took the smile and the
dream of a spring night from 11 people, and destroyed even the simple toys
of children."

Three Knight Ridder Newspapers special correspondents contributed to
this report. Their identities are being withheld for security reasons.
















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