Re: Lidle Burns His Bridges!!
- From: "TonyG" <agraybill71460@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 03:50:01 GMT
"W. Scott Hancock" <hancock@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
"TonyG" <agraybill71460@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
As a Phillie Phan, I wouldn't call them quitters. But Lidle hit it onTony, what do you think is the answer for Philly? Is it a lack of
the head. The status quo for the organization is to field a major league
baseball team and reap profits from its' operation. A winning team
record, let alone a 100% effort towards winning, isn't demanded, sought
after or expected from the ownership. This is evident from the lack of
quality play such as getting bunts down and moving runners up, hitting
sac flys rather than striking out and other fundamentals. It seems to
also be evident from acquiring major league players with marketable
'names' such as Rick White and Ryan (home run) Franklin rather than
giving the ball to less experienced but possibly more talented pitchers
such as Clay Condrey or Brian Sanches in their AAA roster.
The players play within the status quo of the ownership or perhaps they
dont' know any better. With the organization playing for the status quo,
it will be hard for any future teams to succeed under this ownership.
Gillick may turn things around if he is allowed to do it and given free
reigns. It reminds me of the ownership in the Natural movie where they
are actually counting on losing.
We've seen Burrell strike out looking 2 or perhaps 3 times in a game
without taking the bat off his shoulder and walk happily back to the
dugout shaking his head in confusion. Lieberthal has been without a clue
for doing what it takes with the bat to help his team win. That doesn't
always mean getting hits, but it sometimes means not striking out.. or
hitting a fly ball or even sometimes making sure you hit a ground ball
because the infield is conceding a run. Often Leiby will swing at the
first pitch. I've seen him swing at the first pitch after the pitcher
has walked the previous 2 batters on 8 pitches...???
Chase Utley is head and shoulders above others on the team. He will
almost beat out a one hopper to the shortstop because of sheer hustle.
Abreu was one of the status quo players and playing for the Yanks should
elevate his game and his performance may become more like the 30 HR 110
rbi's, walks, runs, .315 hitter that he once seemed destined for. Or the
pressure to increase his performance and the pressure to win may backfire
"W. Scott Hancock" <hancock@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
"Soon2Be27WS" <shockman85@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
NEW YORK -- Cory Lidle hasn't set foot in the Yankees' clubhouse yet,I think that's great - what else should he say? As for Philly, I'm sure
but he has already made it clear that his attitude reflects that of his
new teammates: anything short of winning is unacceptable.
It may seem like an obvious attitude for a professional athlete, but
Lidle believes that his former teammates in Philadelphia didn't always
share that same passion.
"I'm the kind of player who goes to the field every day expecting to
win," Lidle said. "Over the last few years, I haven't had a clubhouse
that expected to win with me. On days I was pitching, it was almost a
coin flip as to whether the guys behind me were going to be there to
play 100 percent.
"I know that's not going to be the deal here in New York," he
continued. "That's the reason I'm most excited to come over here. I
think I'll fit in well and be able to take my game to the next level."
they are populated with quitters - just look at their record year in and
commitment on the part of the owners? not willing to shell out the money?
I'm glad you asked...
Not really, although that might be part of it. I dont' think the ownership
are 'baseball people'. They may be business people and marketing people,
but not baseball people. I think this was especially true of Ed Wade
(former GM) althought I dont' know his history that well.
They proved that they were willing to shell out at least some money when
they signed Thome, Wagner, Leiber and had Burell, Leiberthal, Bell and Abreu
already signed for multi-year contracts. Their salary has been around 95
million for a couple years and that should be enough to field a competetive
team. (Actually as you probably know, there are other teams that
consistently field competetive teams and who spend less than 95 million)
I think the problem during the Wade Era was partly talent evaluation. The
Phils had gotten Millwood and Leiber in different years and both were hoped
to fill a #1 spot in the rotation. They are at BEST #3 arms IMO. They had
gotten Wagner who had been convinced that Philly had turned a page with
their new stadium and Thome's contract and aqcuistion. Wagner was the best
talent out there at the time and served well as closer. No problem with
talent evaluation with either Thome or Wagner, but the Phils did lose Taylor
Bucholz to Houston in the Wagner deal.
Wade had David Bell signed to a 4 year deal. Although being a standup
guy, a decent fielder, he is one of the poorest offensive third basemen in
the NL. His offensive contributions are more suited to utility player.
Some of these long term deals (burrell and Abreu) were I think repercussions
of Schilling and Rolen leaving via trade because they had made it known that
they wouldnt' resign with Philly unless Philly would up their payroll.
Another problem is that possibly because of assistant GM's and others in the
business they look towards a players marketing value and likeability as part
of his roster and salary value.
For example, They kept Mike Lieberthal, partly I think because he was a #1
draft pick and had "extra" marketability due to his name already being known
to Philly Phans, and they traded Johnny Estrada who is turning into a above
average M.L. catcher. IMO.. poor talent evaluation and too much respect for
'marketability' and popularity of the player.
For the last several years, Philly fans have seen a rotation without a
legitimate Ace and arguable without even a #2 slot pitcher. But the phillie
phodder markets the rotation with hype and hopes of Leiber being the #1 and
Lidle being a #2.
Personally, I dont' think the Yankees or the Red Sox have the correct model
for maintaining a perpetually winning team although it seems to be working
and it seems to be the New York way... I.E. 'throw more money at it till
its fixed'. But the Yanks and Sox have seemingly bottomless checkbooks
that allow them to buy their way into contention almost every single year.
But I dont' think ownership in Philly is willing to have a similar
bottomless checkbook and I dont' think that they should have to.
But in order for a team to compete against teams such as those who are
primarily filled with free agent and trade acquisitions, the GM must have an
overall plan and stick to it. Billy Beane in Oakland probably has the type
of plan that I would model similar to. My personal plan would be to always
focus on drafting pitchers higher than hitters. (Good pitching will defeat
good hitting) There are exceptions to this rule such as Ryan Zimmerman or
other Major League ready stars. I would limit contracts to 3-4 years of
length with very few exceptions. You'll never know about an injury or when
someone better will come along...i.e Ryan Howard or Chase Utley.
Maintaining a deep farm system will allow the team the financial flexability
to sign the occasional KEY high priced free agent while still balancing the
budget with good minimum or low wage utility infielders, rookies, 5th
outfielders and a mop-up guy or 2 in the Bull Pen.
Wade said over and over again that the farm system was the key to the
phillies future and yet he consistently did not follow that plan. He signed
free agents and lost draft picks while trying to fulfill the hope of a
playoff contender in the first year of the new staduim. I call this idea or
this system "microwave baseball" meaning we want a pennant and we want in
Gillick has done some good things here in Philly, mostly because of previous
experience and because he is a 'baseball person". Signing Tom Gordon...(for
less than half the price of Wagner) Getting Rowland AND two pitching
prospects for Thome was an excellent deal. Howard is proving to be the VERY
REAL DEAL as you know. Rowland has some shortcomings in OB% and hitting
into DP's, but he is a solid baseball player and good CFer. They say one of
the best. Unloading the soon to be overpaid Abreu, David Bell, Lidle (good
#4 pitcher on a team filled with #4 pitchers was no real loss.) should be
the beginnings of a revamped team. Abreu is a good player, but I dont'
know if he is a 15 million player or is 10 million better than a David
Delucci. That 10 million can be spent towards a true #1 pitcher. The Phils
ended up getting a #1 draft pick without having to pay his signing
bonus..... although it was reported that they did have to buy out Abreu's no
Word was that Burell and Leiber where on the block with Burell turning
down a trade to Baltimore. Burell is becoming overpaid also because of
Wades long term contract ideas and Burells initial potential. Burrell was
also a #1 pick and has the history of being a philly all his life and has
that marketability of familiarity that Wade seemed to like. But he will
soon be making over 10 million/year and is hitting righthanders at about a
..220 clip. I think I could coach a better hitting approach for him, but he
wouldn't listen :)... heh heh. IF winning was the goal, Delucci should
have been platooning with Burell since the beginning of the season. But how
would it look to have a 9 million dollar LF sitting on the bench in 2/3's of
So in summary... What is the answer in PHilly? I think Lidle was close to
the idea of the ownership not fully understanding baseball or of not having
a goal of winning or motivating the players towards winning. Selling the
team to a baseball savvy owner would be one answer.
If the ownership is not willing to have a bottomless checkbook and have
winning AT ANY COST as the goal, The GM MUST be a BASEBALL PERSON and have
a good overall outlook and plan and stick to it. He must have Accurate
talent evaluation!!! Savvy contract negotiations and savvy management of
all his talent resources. Solid drafts with an emphasis on pitching, with a
secondary emphasis on weak positions. (For the Phillies this is 3rd base
and catcher) The GM must fully understand all the ramifications of signing
a free agent and losing a high draft pick and weather that will be made up
by losing free agents or not. Using Bill James Sabermetrics and actually
having a GM who has been involved in talent evaluation through playing
fantasy baseball wouldnt' hurt IMO.
I dont' think Gillick is dismantling... but rather restructuring. Phils
have several good arms in the minors including Mathieson, Hamels, J.A. Happ,
Gio Gonzalez, Kyle Kendrik, Kyle Drabek, Matthew Maloney, Carlos Carrasco
and Others. They need to hold onto them and speed their progression and
Thanks for asking. It starts with ownership, but doesn't end there.
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