Re: Sigh . . .

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:04:19 +0000, Ruben Safir wrote:

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:47:06 -0800, jonathan wrote:


BTW - here is Robert Feller 19-21

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/
fellebo01.shtml#1938-1940...

He only stroke out 380 batters at age 28.

Ruben

Oh come on . . . seriously? You're bringing Bob Feller, who's career
ended 54 years ago into this? Bob Feller, who barely ever pitched at
night and didn't pitch to guys who take batting practice off of
pitching machines with video screens?

Yeah - I do. Because he is probably the closest template to Gooden.
Actually that other pitcher on Clevland who blew out his arm is probably
a better example.

But it doesn't matter. Gooden was an extraordinary talent and you pick
the fruit when it is ripe. There is very little precedent of Gooden's
ability at that age, in fact, almost none. What does pitching machines
have to do with wear on the elbow, or ligament flexibility. These
things change as you get older and there is not much you could do about
it. There was no reason to think that with his command and ease of
delivery that he wouldn't be able to continue to pitch like Feller did,
except for one thing that had nothing to do with wear on his arm...plain
old age that would make that hooking motion harder. And that was pretty
much what happened.


Now you're just getting ridiculous. How about David Clyde? Want to
talk about him? Gary Nolan? Wally Bunker?


Gary Nolan was a garbage pitcher?

Whatever - I'm the idiot here because I keep bringing Gooden up when
you're not even interested in listening to anything other then what's
in your head. Sorry I did that.


Nah - you did it because you enjoy it.

But your position on Dwight Gooden is not easy to defend. Your
proposing that they should have left his '84 and '85 seasons in AA
baseball, including his " 37-5, 1.40 ERA, 412 Ks and 90 walks in 404.6
innings, over a stretch of exactly 50 starts. " is not defensible...


I don't believe Jenrry Mejia is ready.

I agree. I 100% agree.

I may be wrong, but in my
opinion there is no more evidence RIGHT NOW that he is then there was
that Dwight Gooden was in Spring Training of 1984.

and on that your wrong. Look at the tapes and the record. Gooden
pitches 191 innings in a single season in the minors with awesome
success and numerous complete games. Jhenry Mejia has ONE complete game
in his entire minor league career. And he is wild. and not just a
little wild. He is in the dirt often and on the wrong side of the
batter. That is in his most recent competition in the Dominican Leagues
about a month ago. I stick to my prediction, come August this kid will
be in the rotation.

Ruben

"I'd like to revisit the idea that Gooden's defenses in the late 80s and
early 90s had a profound effect on his reputation. If you go by ERA+ or
something like Rally's WAR (which is based on RA, iirc), it will seem
like Gooden had a very good rookie season, an incredible sophomore
campaign, a couple of decent seasons after that, and then faded into
mediocrity. From the comments here, that seems to be more or less the
consensus. However, if you look at FIP you get a very different story -
one which suggests that Doc was an elite pitcher for the first ten years
of his career. His MLB ranks in FIP for each of those first ten seasons
were 1,1,7,3,3,*,2,6,23, and 16, respectively, where (*) represents his
injury-shortened '89 (118 IP) when he didn't qualify. After '93 were the
drug suspensions and he was nothing special when he came back in '96. But
I think it's too dismissive to say that he was nothing special after '85.
Using FIP vs. league average ERA to calculate WAR, I get 9.5, 9.6, 5.2,
4.6, 6.1, 1.5, 7.6, 4.2, 3.8, 4.1 for '84-'93. Obviously, FIP isn't the
whole story, but those numbers suggest that Gooden was pitching on an
elite level for ten years. I'm not sure that makes him HoM, but maybe it
means he deserves a closer look."
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Sigh . . .
    ... He only stroke out 380 batters at age 28. ... You're bringing Bob Feller, who's career ... Gary Nolan was a garbage pitcher? ...
    (alt.sports.baseball.ny-mets)
  • Re: Francoeur: Heart of the team or heart of the problem?
    ... The drugs ended his career. ... The concept that if you limited his innings to a 180 innings in those ... Gooden pitched 1015 professional innings by age 21 (270 in the minors, ... pitcher to Gooden at age 21, and he also flamed out early. ...
    (alt.sports.baseball.ny-mets)
  • Re: Francoeur: Heart of the team or heart of the problem?
    ... The drugs ended his career. ... The concept that if you limited his innings to a 180 innings in those ... Gooden pitched 1015 professional innings by age 21 (270 in the minors, ... pitcher to Gooden at age 21, and he also flamed out early. ...
    (alt.sports.baseball.ny-mets)
  • Re: Mamas dont let your babies grow up to be.....
    ... is there any evidence that throwing a lot of innings at a young age ... effects a pitcher later on? ... Below is a list of pitchers who threw over 1000 innings by age 25 ... lose a lot when he throws too much early in his career. ...
    (alt.sports.baseball.bos-redsox)
  • Re: Ambition vs. love
    ... > and daughter for his career and self-interests in England and France. ... > He did not return for his wifes old age, ... His daughter Sarah married in 1767, seven years before her mother died. ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic)