Re: CY thoughts
- From: "mr. gone" <mr_gone78NOSPAM@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 09:37:22 -0400
In article <ebmna69u6tlqcigirakviauipnbf1njilk@xxxxxxx>,
On Tue, 5 Oct 2010 09:21:13 -0400, "mr. gone"
In article <cudka6lg61s8csvmgtsp2596v4ck44m1cf@xxxxxxx>,
there are a lot of traditions out there in a lot of areas of life that
On 4 Oct 2010 19:29:47 GMT, je.s.te.r@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
McDuck <wallyDELETEMEMcDuck@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I have doubts about giving an award named after the winningest pitcher
of all time to a guy who only won 12 games. But I'd do it if there
were no other strong candidates or the top win guys cancelled each
other out. Perhaps others would think the same way, which would have
made a Lester win yesterday a good think for the king.
I personally don't even care to look at the W/L record of a pitcher,
and think that people who do are stupid. that said, a lot of voters
are stupid and will consider it. CC will win. Honestly, if Lester
had hit 20 and hadn't blown up that last outing, I was wondering if he'd
get any consideration for the Cy as something of a hybrid between CC
I do think Lester would have gotten consideration if he had not taken
himself out of contention with that bad outing.
There is a LONG tradition of looking at W/L as one of the criteria for
CY. I think you are harsh to say it is stupid. But whatever, it is the
tradition. There is something to be said, in giving an award, to apply
longstanding criteria even if one of the criteria is not so great.
*are* stupid and should be thrown out. looking at w/l as an important
criteria in deciding who the best pitcher is, imho, one of those
traditions that should be discarded. pitchers can control their era,
their strikeouts and their hits and walks allowed. they *cannot* control
the quality of the team around them. penalizing somebody for doing their
job but having lousy coworkers seems patently unfair.
Pitchers can control losses. No pitcher loses a game if he does not
give up a run.
unearned runs factor into this too. they can't control that entirely,
But sure, you are right that W/L is not a reliable stat
of pitching performance. However, I've posted before the pitchers with
the best career W/L record. Here is the top 10 post 1900, minimun
1 Whitey Ford .690
2 Pedro Martinez .687
3 Lefty Grove .680
4 Christy Mathewson .665
5 Roger Clemens .658
6 Lefty Gomez .649
7 Three Finger Brown .649
8 Randy Johnson .646
9 Grover C Alexander .642
10 Mike Mussina .638
No real dogs on that list.
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that a really good or
great pitcher is likely to win more games than a mediocre or bad one.
note, however, that nolan ryan isn't on that list - would you say that
he's a bad pitcher because he's not? no - he played on some attrocious
teams that gave him no run support. i'd still look k/9, era and whip far
more strongly than w/l in evaluating who's truly a great pitcher. guys
can win a lot of games playing on good teams, but that doesn't mean they
did more than pitch the requisite number of innings and sinply turn in a
good enough performance to allow their powerful teammates to give them
plenty of run support.
Still, I agree that looking at the season W/L for CY can give some bad
results. All I'm saying is that ALL pitchers care a lot about W/L. If
THEY were voting, I'm pretty sure the majority would give W/L a fair
amount of weight. My point is that it is not accurate to say those
guys are "stupid" for their view.
so, years of mental conditioning hasn't affected their view at all? of
course people want to win - that's why they play the games. but that
doesn't mean that that's the ultimate arbitor of individual performance
in a *team* game, or that the perspective of these atheletes is correct.
of course, as a teammate, you want the win, regardless of your own
personal performance. but the cy young is an *individual* accolade,
having nothing (supposedly) to do with the team as a whole. priorities
have to have context.
I think we can agree that a pitcher does and should pitch
lead,in a 1-0 tight game and a 7-0 blowout. If a pitcher has a good
he should pitch to avoid big innings --- no walks, getting ahead ofbut guys like hernandez, who almost never get a 7-0 lead, will
hitters, etc. In a close game, nibbling may be the best tactic. So,
pitchers with a team that scores a lot (resulting in a lot of wins)
can be expected to have a higher ERA than a good pitcher on a team
that does not score a lot of runs.
inherently have to nibble. the fact that he can do it so well (as
reflected in his stats) speaks volumes about his ability to perform
under less than ideal circumstances.
I agree. I was thinking of CC. I think his ERA is inflated a bit by
the great run support.
shouldn't a pitcher be trying to do his best, regardless of
circumstances? or, to put a spin on this - cc doesn't do his best when
he's got the lead? hernandez had to put his best out there every night
for however long he was on the mound in most of his starts. doesn't that
also speak to the quality of his performance as well? and conversely, do
you think his numbers would be different (aside from a much better w/l
record) if he was pitching for the yankees?
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