no death panels, huh?

from the wall street journal:




WSJ: VA pushes vets to consider death as an alternative to treatment
posted at 11:36 am on August 20, 2009 by Ed Morrissey Share on Facebook |
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The ObamaCare bill may not contain “death panels,” but even Charles Lane
and Eugene Robinson at the Washington Post wonder why the bill
incentivizes end-of-life consultations with the elderly and ill as part of
its cost-containment strategy. Maybe Lane and Robinson should take a look
at the VA, where the Obama administration and former General Eric Shinseki
have reinstated a program called “Your Life, Your Choices.” The Wall
Street Journal reports that this program amounts to a high-pressure sales
pitch for refusal of treatment for veterans:

“Your Life, Your Choices” presents end-of-life choices in a way aimed
at steering users toward predetermined conclusions, much like a political
“push poll.” For example, a work*** on page 21 lists various scenarios
and asks users to then decide whether their own life would be “not worth
living.”

The circumstances listed include ones common among the elderly and
disabled: living in a nursing home, being in a wheelchair and not being
able to “shake the blues.” There is a section which provocatively asks,
“Have you ever heard anyone say, ‘If I’m a vegetable, pull the plug’?”
There also are guilt-inducing scenarios such as “I can no longer
contribute to my family’s well being,” “I am a severe financial burden on
my family” and that the vet’s situation “causes severe emotional burden
for my family.”

When the government can steer vulnerable individuals to conclude for
themselves that life is not worth living, who needs a death panel?

One can only imagine a soldier surviving the war in Iraq and
returning without all of his limbs only to encounter a veteran’s health-
care system that seems intent on his surrender.

I was not surprised to learn that the VA panel of experts that sought
to update “Your Life, Your Choices” between 2007-2008 did not include any
representatives of faith groups or disability rights advocates. And as you
might guess, only one organization was listed in the new version as a
resource on advance directives: the Hemlock Society (now euphemistically
known as “Compassion and Choices”).

Of course, the program is entirely voluntary, right? Well, the VA has
instructed its physicians to deliver this end-of-life counseling to all of
its patients. In effect, the US government is telling every veteran it
treats that they may want to die for their country — not to defend it, but
to save it a few bucks.

This booklet has been in use since the Clinton administration. When the
Bush administration finally reviewed “Your Life, Your Choices,” it
suspended its use within the VA system. For some reason, the Obama
administration and Shinseki have reinstated the booklet this year. The
directive reinstituting the booklet was issued last month.

Perhaps some of the “death panels” rhetoric was overblown, but this is
downright disgusting. The Bush administration was correct in suspending
the use of these tactics to push vets into refusing treatment, and the
government these men and women defended should be ashamed to have put that
in their hands in the first place. If Obama wants to argue that he won’t
bend the cost curve downward at the expense of treatment, maybe he should
start by stopping that very policy at the VA — one of the existing “public
plans” that need reform much more than the overall health-care system.

Blowback

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Comments

Comment pages: « 1 2 [3]

Make that two Kos readers.

TTheoLogan on August 20, 2009 at 12:24 PM

Are you just drunk as they say, or is it worse than that?

DarkCurrent on August 20, 2009 at 12:48 PM

Your Choice Put Obama Where He Is Today

Your Life, Your Choice

Kini on August 20, 2009 at 12:49 PM

Any Senator working to reverse this??

- The Cat

MirCat on August 20, 2009 at 12:49 PM

Perhaps some of the “death panels” rhetoric was overblown

Perhaps not.

littleguy on August 20, 2009 at 12:51 PM

lonesomecharlie on August 20, 2009 at 12:38 PM

You are added to my daily prayers.

theCork on August 20, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Is this the book? It is on a va.gov website.

JustTruth101 on August 20, 2009 at 12:52 PM

I’d like to give Sarah credit for prescience, but the fact is she was
only stating the obvious. Unsavory, shameful and unpopular, but impossible
to miss if you pay attention.

Immolate on August 20, 2009 at 12:44 PM

If it was so obvious, why were all the opponents fumbling to find a way to
frame the outrage in a way with wouldn’t evaporate 30 seconds after
stating it?

“Death Panels” has staying power, much like Reagan’s “Evil Empire” caused
all the Libs and RINOS to almost have a stroke because the language was so
harsh.

portlandon on August 20, 2009 at 12:54 PM

How does this jell with the anti-suicide push by the military?

rob verdi on August 20, 2009 at 12:38 PM

We tend to view a young fit person killing themselves as a tragedy, while
seeing a terminally ill person who decides to opt out of some treatment as
a rational, and unfortunately daily, decision.

dedalus on August 20, 2009 at 12:54 PM

Mr. President,Do Americans have a DUTY TO DIE?

BOOTLICK MEDIA…..I dare you ask Obama in his next presser or town hall..

Does anyone (Jake Tapper / Major Garrett?) have the cajones to ask him
that ask question?

PappyD61 on August 20, 2009 at 12:54 PM

I have received care from a VA facility for several years due to a service
connected disability. Two years ago I had to have an outpatient surgery
done to remove a pile of kidney stones. The end result was my left kidney
no longer exists and my right side is operating at 45%, in the near future
I will have to have a transplant. A very scary prospect after what they
have already done to me. Because this is a government facility , we vets
have very little rights, complaints only hurt ones chances for health
care. This is what the country will see if Obama and the Libs pass this
health package. Don’t do it folks, its not worth your life or your
families.

Navyret on August 20, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Perhaps some of the “death panels” rhetoric was overblown, but this is
downright disgusting.

This kind of foolish nonsense needs to stop. Our side needs to understand
that this isn’t a debating club where we are rated on points. This is a
fight to the death with a bunch of death loving fanatics who want us dead.
Read Holdren’s Ecoscience and Wright and the New Black Panthers.

Sarah got the offending language changed. Hot Air and the rest of the
persnippity Republicans did not. Sarah is taking the fight directly at the
Death Lovers and the rest of the Republicans are NOT.

Quit acting like style points are being awarded. They are not.

PierreLegrand on August 20, 2009 at 12:57 PM

More from Sarah Palin:

The president is busy assuring us that we can keep our private
insurance plans, but common sense (and basic economics) tells us
otherwise. The public option in the Democratic health care plan will crowd
out private insurers, and that’s what it’s intended to do. A single payer
health care plan has been President Obama’s agenda all along, though he is
now claiming otherwise. Don’t take my word for it. Here’s what he said
back in 2003:

“I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care
plan…. A single payer health care plan – universal health care plan –
that’s what I would like to see.” [3]

A single-payer health care plan might be what Obama would like to
see, but is it what the rest of us would like to see? What does a single
payer health care plan look like? We need look no further than other
countries who have adopted such a plan. The picture isn’t pretty. [4] The
only way they can control costs is to ration care. As I noted in my
earlier statement quoting Thomas Sowell, government run health care won’t
reduce the price of medical care; it will simply refuse to pay the price.
The expensive innovative procedures that people from all over the world
come to the United States for will not be available under a government
plan that seeks to cover everyone by capping costs.

Our senior citizens are right to be wary of this health care bill.
Medical care at the end of life accounts for 80 percent of all health
care. When care is rationed, that is naturally where the cuts will be felt
first. The “end-of-life” consultations authorized in Section 1233 of HR
3200 were an obvious and heavy handed attempt at pressuring people to
reduce the financial burden on the system by minimizing their own care.
Worst still, it actually provided a financial incentive to doctors to
initiate these consultations. People are right to point out that such a
provision doesn’t sound “purely voluntary.”

Now doesn’t that sound a lot like this VA policy?

It’s the inevitable result of government health care.

Glenn Beck’s TV program did an investigative report on the Indian
Reservations and their nationalized health care. Same result.

Brian1972 on August 20, 2009 at 12:59 PM

I expect we’ll be hearing Gibbs talk about this just being a “silly
distraction.”

Star20 on August 20, 2009 at 12:59 PM

El Presidente Sleeze-Ball. I don’t remember “The Carter Years” being this
bad.

CEA_Agent on August 20, 2009 at 1:02 PM

Quit acting like style points are being awarded. They are not.

PierreLegrand on August 20, 2009 at 12:57 PM

You are correct. For too long the repubs / conservatives have played a
game while the libtards have fought a war. IT IS TIME TO PUSH BACK AND
FIGHT.

jwp1964 on August 20, 2009 at 1:03 PM

Page 24 is disgusting. It instructs the veteran to INITIAL AND DATE the
page, then fill out the checklist as follows:

What makes your life worth living?

Instructions This exercise will help you think about and express what
really matters to you. For each row, check (✔) one answer to express how
you would feel if this factor by itself described you.

Here are the answer choices, note that there is no “ok” choice, only “bad”
choices: (what sick b*stard designed this?)

difficult, but acceptable
worth living, but just barely
not worth living
can’t answer now

And now the question:

a. I can no longer walk but get around in a wheelchair. b. I can no
longer get outside—I spend all day at home. c. I can no longer
contribute to my family’s well being. d. I am in severe pain most of
the time. e. I have severe discomfort most of the time (such as
nausea, diarrhea, or shortness of breath). f. I rely on a feeding tube
to keep me alive. g. I rely on a kidney dialysis machine to keep me
alive. h. I rely on a breathing machine to keep me alive. i. I need
someone to help take care of me all of time. j. I can no longer
control my bladder. k. I can no longer control my bowels. l. I live in
a nursing home.
m. I can no longer think clearly-I am confused all the time. n. I can
no longer recognize family/friends o. I can no longer talk and be
understood by others. p. My situation causes severe emotional burden
for my family (such as feeling worried or stressed all the time). q. I
am a severe financial burden on my family. r. I cannot seem to “shake
the blues.” s. Other (write in):

Finally, to REALLY push the vet over the edge, here are the instructions
at the bottom of the page:

Instructions To help others make sense out of your answers, think
about the following questions and be sure to explain your answers to your
loved ones and health care providers.

If you checked “worth living, but just barely” for more than one
factor, would a combination of these factors make your life “not worth
living?” If so, which factors?

If you checked “not worth living,” does this mean that you would
rather die than be kept alive?

If you checked “can’t answer now,” what information or people do you
need to help you decide?

You can access the book at www1 . va . gov / pugetsound/ docs / ylyc.pdf
(you have to remove the sapces, my psots won’t appear for some reason if I
link to it…)

JustTruth101 on August 20, 2009 at 1:05 PM

More Palin:

Our nation is already $11.5 trillion in debt. Where will the money
come from? Taxes, of course. And will a burdensome new tax help our
economy recover? Of course not. The best way to encourage more health care
coverage is to foster a strong economy where people can afford to purchase
their own coverage if they choose to do so. The current administration’s
economic policies have done nothing to help in this regard.

Health care is without a doubt a complex and contentious issue, but
health care reform should be a market oriented solution. There are many
ways we can reform the system and lower costs without nationalizing it.

The economist Arthur Laffer has taken the lead in pushing for a
patient-center health care reform policy. He noted in a Wall Street
Journal article earlier this month:

“A patient-centered health-care reform begins with individual
ownership of insurance policies and leverages Health Savings Accounts, a
low-premium, high-deductible alternative to traditional insurance that
includes a tax-advantaged savings account. It allows people to purchase
insurance policies across state lines and reduces the number of mandated
benefits insurers are required to cover. It reallocates the majority of
Medicaid spending into a simple voucher for low-income individuals to
purchase their own insurance. And it reduces the cost of medical
procedures by reforming tort liability laws.” [8]

Those are real reforms that we can live with and afford. Once again,
I warn my fellow Americans that if we go down the path of nationalized
health care, there will be no turning back. We must stop and think or we
may find ourselves losing even more of our freedoms.

- Sarah Palin

She is absolutely correct. It is not overblown in the slightest. Right on
the money. This must be defeated in total, and some real free market
solutions to the problems that do exist put forward without crossing this
“point of no return”, or our freedoms as we have always known them will be
regulated away on the basis of health care costs one at a time, until it
is your turn to have your file on the table of the “death panel”.

Brian1972 on August 20, 2009 at 1:07 PM

Boy, that Palin chick better stop reading. Look what she’s done.

faraway on August 20, 2009 at 1:09 PM

There also are guilt-inducing scenarios such as “I can no longer
contribute to my family’s well being,” “I am a severe financial burden on
my family” and that the vet’s situation “causes severe emotional burden
for my family.”

Those are all realistic scenarios. Why would such counseling pretend those
scenarios are never going to happen when, in fact, they occur every day?

orange on August 20, 2009 at 1:10 PM

orange, I’ll be glad when you are ready for counseling. I’m here to help.

faraway on August 20, 2009 at 1:12 PM

Finally, to REALLY push the vet over the edge, here are the
instructions at the bottom of the page:

JustTruth101 on August 20, 2009 at 1:05 PM

OMG. Not only do they encourage you to think suicidal thoughts but then,
just to make sure you comprehend what you are supposed to be doing, they
all but provide an illustration to show how to fashion a noose out of
bedsheets.

highhopes on August 20, 2009 at 1:13 PM

The WSJ opinion piece cited page 21. Interesting that they didnt mention
these “leading questions” from page 22:

I believe that it is always wrong to withhold (not start) treatments
that could keep me alive.

I believe that it is always wrong to withdraw (stop) treatments that
could keep me alive after they’ve been started.

I believe it is wrong to withhold (not provide) nutrition and fluids
given through tubes, even if I am terminally ill or in a permanent
coma.

(respondents are given the option of answering “Yes”, “Not Sure”, or “No”)

One could easily make the argument that those questions are just as much
“push-polling” as the others.

orange on August 20, 2009 at 1:14 PM

WTF happened to our country? Why do we let the savage, liberal minority
crowd out our patriotism, our God, our rights, our day to day happiness?

And now we are letting them run our wounded vets into early graves via
guilt trip testing? This smacks of coercive euthanasia - combo this with
casual abortions for any and every reason at our expense …….I cannot live
this way, on the edge of vomiting, sick and sad all the damn time, due to
these unethical and monstrous policies, for the rest of my life. Does
anyone out there feel this way too? I said I would never be scared of
anything, but I was wrong.

Ris4victory on August 20, 2009 at 1:15 PM

Why would such counseling pretend those scenarios are never going to
happen when, in fact, they occur every day?

orange on August 20, 2009 at 1:10 PM

There are other, more helpful, ways of addressing the issue.

highhopes on August 20, 2009 at 1:16 PM

Well, at least we’re getting that softer, more compassionate liberal
touch, when being told to just drop dead. It’s a far site better than the
holocaust.

*note the sarcasm*

Mincing words won’t change what this is.

capejasmine on August 20, 2009 at 1:21 PM

Those are all realistic scenarios. Why would such counseling pretend
those scenarios are never going to happen when, in fact, they occur every
day?

orange on August 20, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Then there’s no issue with applying this way of thinking to people with
pre-existing conditions, is there?

Tonus on August 20, 2009 at 1:22 PM

So, if the government someday convinces you that you aren’t worthy of
living any longer and they help you end it all do your loved ones still
collect on your life insurance, because they don’t pay out if you commit
suicide. Or is the government going to take over life insurance companies
next?

scalleywag on August 20, 2009 at 1:22 PM

YAY my personal stalker is here! The parole board finally approved
your release, I see.

Bishop on August 20, 2009 at 12:18 PM

LOL

Old Hippie Vet on August 20, 2009 at 1:24 PM

Does anyone out there feel this way too? I said I would never be
scared of anything, but I was wrong.

Ris4victory on August 20, 2009 at 1:15 PM

You’ve just been listening to the FEAR MONGERS too much.

/sarc

scalleywag on August 20, 2009 at 1:24 PM

Finally, to REALLY push the vet over the edge, here are the
instructions at the bottom of the page:

JustTruth101 on August 20, 2009 at 1:05 PM

Thanks for the info.

UN-effing-believable.

TXUS on August 20, 2009 at 1:27 PM

Mincing words won’t change what this is.

capejasmine on August 20, 2009 at 1:21 PM

I particularly like the fact that you are to sign and date each page of
the “quiz” so family members will know when you filled it out. What that
really means is “so family members have an airtight case when they want to
pull the plug.”

highhopes on August 20, 2009 at 1:29 PM

I’m a vet and if the VA rep were ever to advise me on any of this I
would advise right back that they will be moving on before I will.

Bishop on August 20, 2009 at 12:08 PM You’re a vet? Yeah, right.

TTheoLogan on August 20, 2009 at 12:14 PM

What is WRONG WITH YOU TTheoLogan??!!!!! A little advice for you… pay
close attention to your thoughts, for thoughts become words and words
become actions.

Maybe God will decide that you and those who agree with this disgusting
abomination aren’t worth saving.

fullogas on August 20, 2009 at 1:30 PM

Wild guess: “Going out in a blaze of glory storming The Hill” isn’t
discussed as an option.

Christien on August 20, 2009 at 1:32 PM

When it comes to The One and his support of “choosing” death, there is NO
SUCH THING AS OVER THE TOP RHETORIC.

balkanmom2 on August 20, 2009 at 1:33 PM

What that really means is “so family members have an airtight case when
they want to pull the plug.”

highhopes on August 20, 2009 at 1:29 PM Or when the government employee
pulls the plug and shows the family members how compassionate he was when
he did the deed.

fourdeucer on August 20, 2009 at 1:36 PM

Getting vets to agree to early death, via guilt or shame, is the same as
convincing them to commit suicide, only with medical assistance. Suicide
is a Biblical sin; we are to respect our elders and support the weakest
among us. To be humane, don’t you need to first be a HUMAN?

Please mister usurper president - demonstrate on national t.v. this
program on yourself, or any member of your immediate family.

Ris4victory on August 20, 2009 at 1:41 PM

By now everyone should’ve figured out that the left hates our military
service members.

Tricky*** on August 20, 2009 at 1:43 PM

This is just sick. Life is a short warm moment and death is a long cold
rest. Every single second of life is priceless. I want our brave vets and
every other American to get any and all treatment that they choose. If you
are 100 years old and a pacemaker will give you only one extra day with
you’re family I support putting a pacemaker in instead of just taking a
pain pill. How could anyone support our government doing this? These
morbid socialists in our government have to go!

Dollayo on August 20, 2009 at 1:43 PM

Perhaps some of the “death panels” rhetoric was overblown, but this
is downright disgusting.

Anyone else see the irony in this statement?

Richard Romano on August 20, 2009 at 1:44 PM

Perhaps some of the “death panels” rhetoric was overblown, but this
is downright disgusting.

It wasn’t. Not sure how many times we have to hash this out but what else
wd you call a group of people who decide whether or not to with hold
treatment that will result in your death? They may not actively euthanize
people but the result is the same. And then there are those who with hold
treatment and offer to euthanize people.

People who are sick want to die because they are in pain, are scared, are
lonely, etc. It is cheaper to give poison or enough drugs to OD on than to
address those issues. Disgusting.

Blake on August 20, 2009 at 1:45 PM

I was always told that you don’t get to pick when or how you die. What the
hell, now the government is going to change that? For economic reasons?
Really?

scalleywag on August 20, 2009 at 1:46 PM

Perhaps some of the “death panels” rhetoric was overblown, but this
is downright disgusting.

Me somehow thinks that If Palin’s “Death Panel” label had been applied by
Romney or Pawlenty or a Mainstream GOP spokesmouth Ed might not think this
rhetoric was overblown.

portlandon on August 20, 2009 at 1:48 PM

Like all Obama legislation designed to take over some aspect of our lives,
the arguments tend to be impersonal and somewhat dehumanizing. I would
like to personalize the Veteran’s Administration “Your Life, Your Choices”
with the Poster Boy for the death option. My friend served in the U.S.
Marine Corps in Vietnam. He voluntarily joined the Marines and while on
patrol in August, 1969 he was wounded by a Viet Cong sniper. The bullet
entered his back and severed his spinal cord. As my friend told me later,
it was the intent of snipers to wound and maim as opposed to killing
Marines and Soldiers. As the result of the sniper’s bullet my friend spent
years in and out of hospitals. After being stabilized in Vietnam, he was
transferred to a U.S. Army hospital at Camp Zama, Japan. He eventually
made it to the Veteran’s Administration hospital in Long Beach, California
by way of another six months at the base hospital at Camp Pendleton. His
wounds left him paralyzed from the waist down. He was 19 years old when he
was wounded and has been in a wheel chair his entire life. My friend was
fortunate to have a loving family and friends that never considered him a
burden. Unlike the advice in the VA pamphlet “Your Life, Your Choices,”
they never would have compelled him to die. Over the years his body has
deteriorated but he has not died yet despite the best efforts of the VA.
When he was experiencing too many infections because of the lack of care
by the VA, they just gave him a colostomy so they would not have to be
bothered cleaning and changing him. His legs have broke many times and now
they are considering amputating his legs because they cannot be bothered
treating him. Because he was wounded in Vietnam, he was retired from the
Marines as opposed to just being discharged. Therefore, he was entitled to
the military retiree’s health plan called Tri Care. With the help of a
lawyer, he was transferred out of the VA system and into Tri Care at a
private hospital. Since then, his health along with his legs has improved
tremendously. He is driving again with the aid of a specially equipped van
and his family and friends cannot be happier or more supportive of his
improving health. My friend was once told by a VA doctor that he was not
supposed to live this long. I fear this attitude will permeate the Single
Payer system.

On a final note, many proponents of the Single Payer national health-like
system use the VA for an example of how this ill conceived program would
work in the United States. First of all, the VA is not charity and not
available to all U.S. citizens. The VA was created in 1930 to treat the
veterans who were wounded in WWI. It has evolved into a heartless
bureaucratic incompetent nightmare. Most of the veterans that go there are
for service-related injuries. Ironically, Obama has said that Veterans
should bear some of the costs associated with their service- connected
injuries. So by The Messiah’s logic, my friend who was wounded in Vietnam
and lost the use of his legs should have paid for his own treatment. That
is insane. As a veteran and having used the VA system as well, I would
have to say that the VA is the antithesis of what health care should be in
the United States. Obama said there are no death panels, however, the
“Your Life, Your Choices,” could be the poster child for a death panel
brochure for the masses. Sarah Palin was right!

globalmagnetic on August 20, 2009 at 1:50 PM

This revelation is so incredibly repugnant I am at a loss for words.

I am so glad that my father, my father-in-law, and mother-in-law, all
served during WWII, did not live to see this “thank-you” gift from the
government.

tru2tx on August 20, 2009 at 2:00 PM

Of course they suggest you die after April 18, right after you have paid
your taxes…

right2bright on August 20, 2009 at 2:02 PM

People who are sick want to die because they are in pain, are scared,
are lonely, etc. It is cheaper to give poison or enough drugs to OD on
than to address those issues. Disgusting.

Blake on August 20, 2009 at 1:45 PM

Did you read the article? What do you expect when this guy is the one
writing the publication:


Who is the primary author of this workbook? Dr. Robert Pearlman, chief of
ethics evaluation for the center, a man who in 1996 advocated for
physician-assisted suicide in Vacco v. Quill before the U.S. Supreme Court
and is known for his support of health-care rationing.

highhopes on August 20, 2009 at 2:02 PM

If you are 100 years old and a pacemaker will give you only one extra day
with you’re family I support putting a pacemaker in instead of just taking
a pain pill.

–Dollayo, that is just silly. If it was the Vet’s (or Vet’s family’s) own
money, I’m sure 90% would choose the pain pill in that situation.

Jimbo3 on August 20, 2009 at 2:03 PM

Logan’s Run much?

Why is it that these abortion/euthenasia/end-of-life-counseling death
cultists always believe so fervently that someone else should die for the
good of the country, family, society or to ease their own suffering?

When they start offing themselves, I’ll start crediting them with
sincerity. In any successful species, this sort of impulse should be self-
eliminating, shouldn’t it? I think our worshippers of Anubis aren’t
“deathy” enough.

Immolate on August 20, 2009 at 2:05 PM

Of course they suggest you die after April 18, right after you have
paid your taxes…

right2bright on August 20, 2009 at 2:02 PM

hahahahahahah.

scalleywag on August 20, 2009 at 2:13 PM

Why is it that these abortion/euthenasia/end-of-life-counseling death
cultists always believe so fervently that someone else should die for the
good of the country, family, society or to ease their own suffering?

Immolate on August 20, 2009 at 2:05 PM

I don’t care what they believe. What offends me is their insistance that I
should agree with them completely.

highhopes on August 20, 2009 at 2:15 PM

This vet to Barry……

I will breathe until I suck every last dollar out of your hide. I don’t
care if just my appendix registers as still alive. I do not give you
permission to pull the plug, flip the switch, or turn out the lights.

I’ll be dead forever. Might as well stay here as long as possible.

Limerick on August 20, 2009 at 2:15 PM

There are other, more helpful, ways of addressing the issue.

highhopes on August 20, 2009 at 1:16 PM

How is it more helpful to ignore painful yet realistic contingencies?

orange on August 20, 2009 at 2:18 PM

Then there’s no issue with applying this way of thinking to people
with pre-existing conditions, is there?

Tonus on August 20, 2009 at 1:22 PM

I’m not sure what you mean. If it’s possible for someone to face a
difficult situation, then there’s value in discussing that situation ahead
of time. The more likely it is that that situation will be faced, the more
value there is in discussing it.

orange on August 20, 2009 at 2:24 PM

Pearlman was actually one of about 50 bioethicists who signed a third
party brief by a law firm supporting the right of competent patients to
request physician-assisted suicide. A rabbi, several teachers in Catholic
and Mormon schools and Gerald Dworkin, a noted philosopher, also signed
the brief.

He didn’t argue in front of the Supreme Court. Link is here: http://
wings.buffalo.edu/faculty/research/bioethics/brf-int.html. It doesn’t look
like he’s out of the mainstream on this point.

Jimbo3 on August 20, 2009 at 2:26 PM

Of course some of us may face these difficult situations in our lifetime.
My mother had liver cancer. Doctors wanted to put her on a transplant
waiting list. She was 62. She didn’t want to be put on the list because
she said she’d feel horrible if she got a liver before some child got one.
Ended up her cancer had spread and she passed away, but no one had a
conversation with her about the cost of a liver transplant, no one cared.
If we could have kept her around longer what would it matter? You do what
you can for your family. I don’t know what I would have done if some
beaurocrat had come around asking her to think about the financial burden
or the quality of her life. How dare them want to interfere in our
personal lives like that. I sure miss that woman.

scalleywag on August 20, 2009 at 2:30 PM

scalleywag on August 20, 2009 at 2:30 PM

First off, sorry for your loss.

I personally think that everybody needs to face these issues and come to
their own conclusions about how to deal with end-of-life concerns. It is
wrong to force your spouse/children/whoever to be making these decisions
on your behalf at a time of great stress. Nevertheless, there is no place
in the equation for some government bureaucrat to come by and counsel you
with suggestions that you might be better off dead than continuing as a
drain on society.

highhopes on August 20, 2009 at 2:39 PM

You do what you can for your family. I don’t know what I would have
done if some beaurocrat had come around asking her to think about the
financial burden or the quality of her life. How dare them want to
interfere in our personal lives like that. I sure miss that woman.

scalleywag on August 20, 2009 at 2:30 PM

Like you, I’ve had family members who have had to face end-of-life
treatment decisions. Currently, available treatment is limited by
technology, insurance policies and personal wealth. It seems positive for
a doctor or insurance rep to provide information about what is feasible.
Each family should know that ultimately it is their decision about what
they have resource for and what the patient wants.

dedalus on August 20, 2009 at 2:43 PM

Obama To Vets: “It would be so nice if you weren’t here.”

David2.0 on August 20, 2009 at 2:57 PM

I hope I didn’t offend anyone with my comments about joining the military.

I know people do it for reasons bigger than themselves.

However, I just believe that as it currently stands, the negatives are
slowly outpacing the positives. I understand do it for their own personal
reasons, and I don’t doubt the good intentions of those decisions at all.

I suppose I’m just disgruntled with what is being done to those in the
military, and what they are “fighting for”

blatantblue on August 20, 2009 at 3:11 PM

Is it that they don’t trust us to make the right decisions in these cases,
or that we aren’t making the decision they want us to make? I think it’s
the latter. I’d really lose it though if I told a relative we’d do
whatever we could for them and abide by their wishes only to have some
“agency” tell me, sorry, that’s not the right decision…the right decision
is this. Doctors don’t even have the right to do that, do they?

scalleywag on August 20, 2009 at 3:12 PM

Each family should know that ultimately it is their decision about
what they have resource for and what the patient wants.

dedalus on August 20, 2009 at 2:43 PM

Yea, but people do that every day anyway, why would we legislate this? I
think it’s because they want control. Control of the decision.

scalleywag on August 20, 2009 at 3:16 PM

Soon veterans, because of their exposure to life and death situations,
will be greeted at our borders upon their return by representatives of our
very own gulag. If they show any patriotic, republican, constitutional, or
Christian tendencies, they will be watched until it is convenient for them
to be disapeared.

Solzhenitsyn was very upset with how Russia treated it’s returning
soldiers. How different are we? Is it simply a matter of degree of
difference, or are we essentialy different so that such a slippery slope
will never be approached? And he talked of how he, under different
circumstances, could have been one of the guards or interrogators,
pointing out that the line of evil is in each heart. The passivity of the
common people, the suprise at being accused, the varried appeals to a
twisted patriotism, Solzhenitsyn makes for interesting reading.

AnotherOpinion on August 20, 2009 at 3:21 PM

I’m not sure what you mean. If it’s possible for someone to face a
difficult situation, then there’s value in discussing that situation ahead
of time. The more likely it is that that situation will be faced, the more
value there is in discussing it.

orange on August 20, 2009 at 2:24 PM

Some radical practicioners ask the patient how they’re doing and then
react to their free form answers.

Chris_Balsz on August 20, 2009 at 3:26 PM

Yea, but people do that every day anyway, why would we legislate
this? I think it’s because they want control. Control of the decision.

scalleywag on August 20, 2009 at 3:16 PM

Maybe some do. I’m more concerned with those on the left who want to
reduce, instead of increase, individual responsibility for setting health
care priorities. The bigger risk than some bureaucrat persuading patients
is that the socialization of the industry would reduce the overall quality
of treatments available. Even those eager to pursue treatment may find
less is available.

dedalus on August 20, 2009 at 3:27 PM

Caring for those that have borne the burden of the battle are now
considered the burdens, and to hell with their battle.

One of the many reasons that Socialism/Communism are evil: the State is
God, the power-monger elite the self-righteous self-anointed priests of
the death-cult; humanity’s value reduced to mere cogs in a meaningless
meat-machine utopia.

Maquis on August 20, 2009 at 3:48 PM

I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD,
YOU SHALL NOT HAVE OTHER GODS BEFORE ME - THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

“We are God’s partners in matters of life and death.” - Barack Hussein
Obama, August 19, 2009

This quote should go viral.

When they came for the unborn, I didn’t say a word… when they came for the
embryos to take their stem cells for those who were really “persons”; more
“productive” and “deserving”, I was silent….and now they come for us.

If we had rocked the town halls, melted the phone lines and voted every
loser who supported baby killing out of office long ago, we never would
have reached this point.

Yes, many of us spoke out for the unborn, but not nearly enough of us and
not nearly loud and long enough. Not nearly as many or as loudly who are,
and rightfully so, now speaking out for our own lives and our own
pocketbooks.

So many gather now at tea parties and town halls and they are proud to say
that they have never before attended a protest or been politically active.
NOT EVEN WHEN THE UNBORN WERE AND ARE BEING MURDERED AT THE RATE OF 4300
PER DAY. Let’s not kid ourselves, we have been MIA and allowed 40 million
babies to be butchered out of existence.

And many of us have had abortions or been involved in some way in helping
an abortion happen. Many of us have repented of this sin, but guilt still
slows us down. Not that to speak out for the unborn means that we have to
confess our sins to the world. It’s just that the guilt keeps us from
really participating fully. Maybe we can try to give our sins, once and
for all, to the Mercy of God and let him give us a new heart and show us
how infinite His forgiveness is. Scripture says that God will cast our
sins away, “as far as the east is from the west, and He will remember them
no more.”

And then we can get back to the fact that we are faced with a so-called
President who boasts that he is in a self-proclaimed “partnership” with
God Almighty regarding matters of Life and Death!

This is the kind of pure evil that we should have expected to emerge from
the abortion blood-bath. BHO has happily covered himself in innocent
blood. And we put him in a position to cover himself in our own blood,
because we didn’t stop it long before we ever heard of him, like maybe
when he was 12 years old in 1973, the year abortion became “the law of the
land”.

The Demon-in-Chief knows in his own perverted way that this is a spiritual
battle, and he has blasphemed in our faces without blinking an eye.

Bottom line, he just told us who was in charge of our lives (and it isn’t
God) and by having the temerity to come out and make this statement, he
has thrown down the gauntlet; he’s waiting to see whether we will try to
dissolve his “partnership”, or let it go as just another “obamaism”, as we
like to say here at HA, and remain good little sheeple, to be led to the
slaughter.

St. Paul tells us in Scripture that our battle in this life is really “not
a battle of flesh and blood” but of the spirits in high places. And many
now say they feel as though we are fighting for our lives. And so we are.
But in order to gain Almighty God’s help to defeat Obama’s evil schemes,
we need to repent of our neglect of the unborn, pray daily for mercy and
God’s power, and to INCLUDE THE UNBORN IN THIS FIGHT, so that we will
fight as hard for the defenseless child in the womb as we will for
ourselves, our parents and family members outide the womb.

How do we specifically include the unborn in this fight?

It’s all there in the Constitution of the United States of America, given
to We the People. We amend our Constitution- we gather all of the anger,
passion and righteous firepower that is building at tea parties and town
halls and we finally pass a Human Life Amendment that would protect all of
us, from conception to natural death. Then, the power of God will come
upon us and we will defeat and drive out this evil that is attempting to
smother us all. If we fail to finally and effectively come to the defense
of these little ones, regardless of what happens to us, I don’t think we
can count on help from above. And without that, we are defenseless and
unarmed on a battlefield with a savage and merciless enemy.

Then, we and our little unborn brethren will say to Soros, Obama and their
countless minions, in the power and authority of the Lord, “Get behind us,
satan!”

P.S. I have been thinking about this for a while, and finally wrote it
out. Although I am not the best writer, and wish I could express this
point more skillfully, I hope you all won’t mind seeing it pop up on a few
other appropriate threads.

tigerlily on August 20, 2009 at 3:54 PM

Isn’t it amazing how emotional and persuasive this booklet gets to be when
it’s talking about someone’s choice to refuse care, accept pain and
disability, and die.

And yet there can be no allowance whatsoever for appeals to emotion,
persuasion, or anything even faintly resembling them when it comes to
counseling women on the pros of keeping their babies instead of aborting
them.

Why do you suppose that is?

J.E. Dyer on August 20, 2009 at 4:05 PM

We have a lot of old “holier than thou” politicians that should be put in
this program, but let these patriots alone and give them all the support
they can to live a productive live as long as they can.

hillbilly on August 20, 2009 at 4:33 PM

It is our sacred duty as a nation to restore these veterans to health and
a productive life. They gave so much to us anything less than all we can
do for them is completely unacceptable.

Herb on August 20, 2009 at 4:33 PM

I am just appalled that our government would treat these Veterans in such
a low, dispiciable, disgusting manner. Whatever life any of our veterans
have remaining, they should be treated with the utmost dignity and
respect. Their sacrifices should not be forgotten and this is utterly,
absolutely unexcusable for our government to pressure them into suicide to
save Uncle Sam a buck. After all, without these veterans, the politicians
wouldn’t have a country to try to take down and destroy as they are now.

May God bless and have mercy on our Vets!

GrannySunni on August 20, 2009 at 4:50 PM

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