Re: Hall Votes

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:13:28 -0000, "Bob-Nob" <bobnob15@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

OceanView venit, vidit, et dixit:
Steve Robbins <srobbins31@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I sometimes wonder who the writers are that vote for
the guys on the bottom of the list. I can accept
Beck as a tribute. But at a minimum, every vote below
Baines is a joke IMHO.

<snip>

Player Total Votes Percentage
Harold Baines 28 5.2%
Rod Beck 2 0.4%
Travis Fryman 2 0.4%
Robb Nen 2 0.4%
Shawon Dunston 1 0.2%
Chuck Finley 1 0.2%
David Justice 1 0.2%
Chuck Knoblauch 1 0.2%
Todd Stottlemyre 1 0.2%
Jose Rijo 0 0%
Brady Anderson 0 0%

Relatives?

Seriously, Chuck knoblauch? Shawn Dunston? I'd even
rate Brady (probably took stroids) Anderson above those
two.

Two points to make:

(1) There are guys who (possibly) should be in the
Hall of Fame who dropped off the ballot like all the
above sub-Baines players. Lou Whitaker and Dwight
Evans come to mind, for two.

(2) Using the lowest-common denominator argument, one
could argue that a lot of the above players deserve
to be in the (MUCH larger) Hall of Fame.

Here are some of the worst players (by position) in
the Hall of Fame and their OPS+s (for convenience's
sake and because it allows for comparison across eras).

Player OPS+ games played
C: Ray Schalk 83 1762
1B: George Kelly 109 1622
2B: Red Schoendienst 93 2216
SS: Phil Rizzuto 93 1661
3B: Travis Jackson 102 1656
CF: Lloyd Waner 99 1993
LF/RF: Tommy McCarthy 102 1275

So let's go through the list.

Travis Fryman played 3b. For his career, he had a
103 OPS+ in 1698 games. That puts him ahead of Travis
Jackson, depending on what we make of their defense.

Travis Jackson was primarily a SS (1307 games to 326 at 3B). But
Jackson is clearly among the more dubious Hall of Famers, one of many
cronies of the influential Frankie Frisch when he was de facto chair
of the Veterans Committee. Fryman, who had a somewhat disappointing
career, was probably a better player than Jackson.

Shawon Dunston played SS. For his career he had an
89 OPS+ in 1814 games. Depending on their relative
defensive merits, there's a case to be made for
Dunston.

I find it very unlikely that Dunston's defense was even close to
Rizzuto's, and the latter also arguably deserves *some* sympathy
points for missing several prime years due to serving in World War II.
Not that Rizzuto isn't among the more questionable HOF choices, of
course, but I'm comfortable in calling him a better player than
Dunston.

David Justice mostly played corner outfield. In
1610 games, he had a 129 OPS+. That puts him ahead
of Tommy McCarthy, I think.

Certainly. McCarthy is very questionable, having had his best season
in a league, the Union Association, that lasted only one year and
should never have been classified as major.

Chuck Knoblauch was a 2B (and menace to fans sitting
along the first base line). In 1632 games, he had a
106 OPS+. Certainly a better hitter than Schoendienst,
though in fewer at bats, and then there's always the
defensive adjustment. I'd say there's a case for
Knoblauch, at the least.

I've never understood the Schoendienst phenomenon. He was a great
"baseball man" with a long career in several phases, but as a player
just seems to have been good, not HOF-worthy (IMHO). But I didn't see
him play and may be underestimating certain virtues. Knoblauch was a
clear HOF-caliber player in his early career and then faded. I
suppose on balance, he may still have been better than Red.

Brady Anderson? Anderson played 1834 games as a CF
and had a 109 OPS+. Even if we cut off Waner's wartime
(parttime) play (158 games of .312 OBP and .305 SLG, yuck),
we can't raise his OPS above 100. I'd be surprised if
Anderson wasn't a better player than Waner.

Absolutely. Waner is near the top of the list of people I'd "kick
out" of the Hall of Fame if given the opportunity. His brother Paul
was richly deserving of the honor; Lloyd rode his coattails to
Cooperstown.

Anyway, not saying I'd vote for all (or any) of these
guys (though did you know David Justice had a better
career OPS+ than Jim Rice?), but I can see why people
who believe in a (really) big Hall might. (Or, to
be more accurate, if I'm feeling particularly contrarian,
I can see it).

My problem with guys like Justice and Fred Lynn is that while their
overall stats (especially the percentage/rate ones) are really very
good, they don't have that many "Hall of Fame seasons," due to
injuries, off years, and time spent as platooners (which also helps
their percentages/rates). While their percentage/rates might be
better than a guy like Rice's, the latter *did* have several really
eye-popping seasons.

To me, Rice's 1977, 1978, 1979, 1983, and 1986 seasons are clearly
"Hall of Fame" caliber, and he also had several other good ones, like
1975 and 1982. Lynn really just had two, 1975 and 1979, as far as I'm
concerned. Justice does a little better (1993, 1997, 2000). Had
there not been a strike, he probably would've added one in 1994. But
his other years, even his Rookie of the Year season, seem somewhat
incomplete. Both Lynn and Justice only played 150+ games in one
season, and each had just three other years in the 140s. That's too
many missed games, IMHO, even if they did well in their partial
seasons and retired with nice OPS's. When healthy, each may have been
better than Rice (well, Lynn definitely was, when you factor in
position and defensive skills). But I couldn't endorse either for the
HOF due to the games played issue. Not that I'm a Rice-for-the-HOF
guy; I'd vote "no" on him too, as much as it pains me to say so.

(Note that I'm still something of a traditionalist. While I don't bow
to the altar of RBI and BA, I can't go ga-ga over a Fred Lynn year
like 1986, even with his 137 OPS+, because of the 112 games, .287 BA,
23 HR, and 67 RBI. Those last four stats don't scream "immortality"
to me, no matter how well he hit when healthy, and when a righty was
on the mound.)

-Bismo.
.

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