Re: HoF musings
- From: McDuck <wallymcduckDELETEME@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:43:39 -0500
On 15 Jan 2006 19:19:34 -0800, "Gnork" <gnork@xxxxxxxxx> quacked:
>> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 11:40:02 -0500, Thermos <cfbltw@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >McDuck belched:
>> >> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:35:06 -0500, Thermos <cfbltw@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> quacked:
>> >>>McDuck quacked:
>snip of excessive historical speculation.
>> I think Eck is the model for the current closer (like with sutter, it
>> was injury driven). The current model obviously has flaws ---
>> especially the 3-run save. We are seeing movement away --- use of
>> Mariano and Foulke for two innings on occasion, use of both in tie
>> games. However, Foulke in 2004 was used more effectively than Mariano,
>> or so it seemed to me. Anyway, the trend is toward less rigid "save"
>> usage for the closer. Perhaps the stats will change to reflect the
>> "newer" emerging model. (Unlike James, I'd almost never use the ace
>> reliever before the 7th inning and only occasionally in the 7th ---
>> othrwise, the risk to the health of the reliever is immense.)
>Why is that? Do you boneheadedly think that if your ace reliever comes
>in the game in the 7th inning with the game on the line that he has to
>complete it? HE sure as hell does not. Let him get out of the 7th
>inning intact. Let him pitch the 8th if appropriate. Then 9 times out
>of 10, let somedamnbody else pitch the 9th. There is no magic to the
>9th inning as witnessed by career clods like Dustin Hermanson becoming
Of course I assume the ace would get relief. But if the game stays
close, you will find a lot of managers who will be tempted to keep the
ace in the game too long. And you will get "bonehead" fans complaining
if the game is lost when the Dustin Hermanson lookalike comes in for
the 8th or 9th and blows the game. However, as I said, I STILL am
prepared for some use in the 7th.
As for coming in before the 7th, I have several objections. First is
basically the same one I gave above --- overuse. Second, although I
can imaging that the 5th inning with 2 outs and the bases loaded
**may** be the most important inning of th game (think 2d game of the
playoff against Chi WS this year), it is generally difficult to make
that determination, as there are so many innings left that lots can
happen. Third, I think the "order" in the BP gets really upset when
the ace is not used in some regular pattern. I don't really see whay
this has to be true, but it does appear to be true in many cases.
>> Still, the one great advantage of the modern closer rule is that it
>> keeps managers from grossly abusing the stud reliever. Can you imagine
>> what would have happened to Ryan last year with Baltimore if there had
>> not been a lot of pressure to roughly conform to the closer model? It
>> was bad enough as it was.
>You continually toss out crap with no backup. What was the deal with
>Ryan? I do NOT imagine any problems, but I know you work overtime to
>imagine them in every situation involving pitchers.
The "boneheaded" and soon-to-be-fired manager of the Orioles was
maddly overusing Ryan early in the season, most especially in the
> >Now an Earl Weaver can be trusted to protect
>> his stud reliever, and any RS manager could be expected to do so, due
>> to FO (Theo) interference. So, in principle, the BJ approach is good.
>> But in practice for many teams, it is a disaster --- blowing out the
>> arm of the best reliever on the team. The FIRST job of any mamager is
>> to protect the health of his players --- that is more important to
>> winning than any other contribution he can make to winning.
>Bull. Do what it takes to win the game. The trainers job is to protect
>the player's health. I'm sure they have input with the managers who do
>not want anyone hurt.
The trainers know almost nothing about player usage. Why would you
think they would? Do we now make stat knowledge a requirement for
>> I'm pretty sure that Mariano would not have had his longevity if the
>> usage pattern in place in the Gossage era were in effect now. Just a
>> guess, of course, but that is the worry with the ace reliever model
>> --- bad or mediocre managers doing great damage to great players.
>Want a Kleenix?
I can understand your lack of concern for Mariano's health.
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