Re: OT Re: No answers (long)

k_pip_k wrote:
<SNIP>


So what you are saying basically is that if I lived in a rurual
setting or on a farm, I would be more inclined to destroy the planet
for profit.
So farmers equals destruction? Very interesting argument.
Conan, let's just agree to disagree.
No, if you lived in a rural setting, you wouldn't have silly romantic
notions about nature, living beings, and how we all fit together.

And by your own argument you have never lived in a city to know the
every
days demands and destruction made around us. You're too prissy living
on
your nice clean farm, where you eat your organic beef and pork raised
on your
own farm. You don't have to deal with salmanella and those damn
stupid
FDA inspection laws. You've got your water well, so you don't have to
drink
recycled toilet water, mixed with oil and antifreeze from your
driveway. What
prissy life you have living in the rurual areas. Why don't you live
in the
city where you can experience what a hard life really is.

Utterly wrong. I have lived extensively in both rural and urban
settings. I entertain no romantic notions of either. Both have
virtues and vices as places to live. But the bending down and
worshiping the earth mentality I despise primarily springs from
the urban dwellers who think God made the earth with concrete.

Sorry Tim, basically your own argument flipped around. Pretty lame
huh? You don't
do it, and I won't.

Your point is incoherent here.



You'd understand the notion of stewardship and balance that must be
struck between the use and protection of the human habitat. You'd be
far less inclined to elevate animals to be the moral equivalent of
humans, and you wouldn't have the allergy you seem to at the notion

I almost agree with you here. Do you have a dog or cat? How come you
don't
eat it. Everyone that agrees with Tim, and also has a pet, why don't
you go
home tonight and eat your pets? It's all meat right?

Yes, we love our pets - irrationally even - and I am entirely guilty
of this myself insofar as my cat may be the best "person" I know. But
*choosing* not to eat Fido, is not anything remotely like saying that
Fido has the same right to live as my child which is roughly your
argument when you say "All living things have a right to exist."



Look, lame argument again. I eat animals, I also fish. But should we
abuse the animals when they live? Who also gave us the right to kill

No we shouldn't - because we are better *people* when treat animals
well. But what has that got to do with this thread?

them?
Just because we can kill, does that give us the right? 50 years from
now, when
we are making beef in a lab, our great-great grandkids will look back
to this era
and say how barbaric we were.

You are seriously delusional. The US alone today produces enough food
to feed the entire world (at a subsistence level) and does so on *less*
land per fed person than in all of human history. There is no sense in
which grains or animals are remotely endangered. Quite to contrary,
those MacDonalds gorging pigs you despise are able to do so because
we have an *excess* of critters and grain.


that humans can both make money AND protect their world at the same
time. And, hopefully, you'd overcome that oh-so-urban tendency to want
to lecture everyone else about what they should- or should not be

And you don't like to lecture everyone with your taciturn arguments?
That's
hypocrisy.

No. I like to be left alone to live my life as I see fit. I don't
engage in fraud, force, or threat and I expect this from others.
Every now and then, one of you self-anointed saviors of man comes
along and starts wagging their fingers. I've seen this movie before
and it always leads to oppression of someone. So, I push back - with
words, strong words, in this case. You don't want that to happen,
stop assuming you know what's good for everyone else or be prepared
to prove your case - which you have not thus far done. I pretty much
never start these kinds of discussions. As I said, I mostly like to
be left alone. But I will not stand by idly while people with bad
information, bad ideas, and bad recommendations set the public policy
discussion around me. If these bad things had not effect on me, I'd
be quiet, but they do, so I'm not.


doing. When my actions harm you - I commit fraud, force, or threat
upon you - then you have every moral right to stop me or have me
stopped. But just because you don't like my actions, does not give you
moral permission to force me to stop. That idea of live and let live
is primarily seen best in rural, not urban centers.

It does when my kids' future is at stake. I would love for them to
see
a moose in the wild, not in a book and the zoo. Sorry dude, when you

And on what basis do you assume they will NOT see said Moose? More to
the point, despeciation is a normal part of planetary cycle. Far more
species have come- and gone in the 4B years of planet earth than even
exist presently. It takes an unbelievable amount of hubris to believe
that we humans have the capacity to prevent this from happening now.


pollute the
air and water, cancer doesn't show up till years later, and then
people
wonder where they got the cancer from. I smoke, and I have calculated
the risk reward for me, that is my choice. But if that choice affects
my kids,
if the choices you make affects my kids, I'll stop you moral or not.

You have a moral right to stop me *if you can show harm*. Just because
you're nervous there *might* be some harm going on doesn't
give you permission to trample on my freedoms. It's put up or shut
up. Show real harm, and you have both legal and moral right to
use government force to stop me. Absent that, its just more
shrieking from the dirt worshipers who need to perpetually be worried
about something. The truth is that there is *less* pollution
overall on the planet today than they was at the time of
the Industrial Revolution. More people live longer, better, healthier,
and richer lives than at any time in human history. But you and
yours run around wringing your hands because things are not
perfect enough to suit you, worried about every environmental
phantasm, every pollution illusion, and every imaginary, unprovable
form of harm you can dream up. It's silly. I personally think
it's also an incredibly wasteful way to live a life, but that's
your business, *so long as you don't inflict this upon me*.



Moral is also in the eye of the beholder. Your moral is different
than mine.

This is the worst kind of philosophical sewage. If morality is
in the eye of the beholder, and the "beholder" doesn't think murder
is wrong, is it OK with you if they kill you and your family to
rob your property? Some basic level of morality is not up to you
or I or anyone else. It is necessary to ensure the maximal amount of
freedom between us UP TO the point where someone engages in fraud, force,
or threat. Say someone actually is polluting your drinking water,
that's force and threat, you have a case to have it stopped. But
retreating to "let's all make up morality in our own image" is
a recipe for suicide, not survival.


I wish you no personal malice, but your ideas a bad and dangerous and
it is to those ideas to which I speak.

And I don't wish any upon you. Let's just end this discussion. It
was
interesting.


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk tundra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
.

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