Re: OT: A Bowl in Honor of Governor Arnie



gregaryt@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
Skip wrote: 
gregaryt@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

I'm sorry, but if someone is going to argue against the death penalty,
this isn't the poster child you want.  He was an evil man by just about
all accounts.  I will agree that rejoicing in anyone's death is wrong,
but I also can't say I'm sorry he's gone.  I'm very leery of the death
penalty due to my honest distrust of government, but I honestly believe
this time the system got it right.

Greg, a poster child isn't needed to oppose capital punishment.  I'm not
at all opposed to victims killing attackers in self-defense, and in
fact, I think a potentially life-threatening assault should be met by
the intended victim with overwhelming force.  But it is an abuse of the
concept of self-defense to claim that a state-sponsored homicide meets
the criteria.

When the state puts someone to death, it is merely a vengeful exercise
of force that presumably reflects the will of a majority of people who
in fact, do not have the right to assign such authority.  The state
starts each prosecution with a declaration that the criminal has
committed an offense against the state.  I say the state is not a person
and cannot be offended against.  It is offensive to me that the state
exists at all, as government itself is an initiation of force.

Just in case it isn't clear, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal and I
don't oppose capital punishment because of some misguided wish to excuse
bad behavior, and especially not for reasons based on environmental or
psychological or other factors supposedly outside the control of the
evildoer.  That's a bunch of bunk.  People are responsible for their
actions, and should be held accountable.  I oppose capital punishment
solely because I deny the right of some people (a majority of voters) to
grant approval to another entity (the state) to perform revenge killings
by proxy.

Skip. 

Skip,

The only thing I would say in defense of the state sponsored death
penalty is that the Gov't of California is a legally elected gov't that
the people of CA have given the ability to act on their behalf.
Therefore, the state has the right to remove an individual from society
in the victim's behalf.  Without the gov't in this case then you end up
with exactly what this Williams fellow created.  A lord of the flies
scenario of competing gangs taking over parts of cities.

I would completely agree that we need to change our justice system to
put the individual on trial for a crime against another individual and
not "the state".  I've long said that someone going to jail for
stealing my stuff out of my house doesn't help me at all.  I want my
stuff back,  not to feed some jerk in jail with my tax dollars.

In my heart I agree with everything you have written above. But
practically speaking I do not see how to make it work without devolving
into nothing more than rival turf wars with one side taking revenge of
the other. Humans have developed a tribal culture very early in our
development and in reality that is all a gov't is. It isn't perfect,
and I've already stated I'm not comfortable with the overall idea of
the death penalty given how it can be abused by overzealous procecuters
and judges. Again, the death of a human is never a cause for rejoicing
or celebration. But I will not lose sleep tonight, nor will I wonder
if we got this one right. 

Greg T


I understand where you are coming from, Greg. For my part, I don't agree that there can be any such thing as a legally elected government. That's probably the essential difference in our way of thinking, tribal culture notwithstanding. All the rest just follows from that distinction.

But as this is not a political forum or a private exchange, it's probably enough said in this venue. We should get back to pipes and tobacco.

Skip.
.

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