Re: Why the right is unfair to Cain

On 14 Dec 2011 20:25:27 GMT, Bart Goddard wrote:

Miss Elaine Eos <misc@*Your-pants*PlayNaked.com> wrote in
news:jbobf6$pn8$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx:

On 2011-12-07 17:54:48 +0000, Bart Goddard <goddardbe@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
said:
Miss Elaine Eos <misc@*Your-pants*PlayNaked.com> wrote in
news:jb90p2$cn8$1 @dont-email.me:
So, you are suggesting that [a/the] main measure of forensic proof
is the presence of [some number of] witnesses who would die by
torture rather than recant their story?

As I mentioned earlier, this will yield as "proven" results that I
think you would call "poppycock."

For example?

Military [/terrorist] interrogation is filled with examples.

I think Tony answered this well, but there is another facet.
Someone who endures torchure for the sake of promoting
communism, or for the sake of protecting his buddies or
his country, is not the same thing. There is "something to
be gained" by maintaining one's fib under torchure.

The Apostle's had no such thing. _If_ they were lying,
then there was no ideal worth suffering for. You don't
find that in your (sort of) example. Rather, the Apostles
are dying by torture for simply witnessing an historic fact.
There's no money in it. There's no power in it. There's
no heaven in it if it's a lie. What on earth could their
motivation be, unless they are reporting the facts as they
saw them?

The Romans did not kill the Apostles (or later the early
Christians) because they witnessed some alleged historical act.
Rome was notoriously tolerant in religious matters -- it was a
major tool for pacifying conquered tribes and nations. As far as
Rome was concerned, anybody could believe anything they wanted as
long as they gave Rome its due and did not preach rebellion.
IOW, as long as the believers made the obeisances required to
demonstrate allegiance to the Roman empire and didn't stand in
the marketplace telling people of the end of the world and the
coming of an all-conquering king of kings, they were free from
persecution.

As for motivation, they may well have believed what they were
preaching even under torture and at the point of death, but that
does not make it true. Fervour of belief is not evidence of
factual accuracy. Suicide bombers do not have a better handle on
eternal truth simply because they are willing to blow themselves
up in crowded market squares. The Japanese cause in WWII was not
made any more righteous and justified merely because of their
troops' willingness to make suicide charges. The followers of
David Koresh believed in their prophet to the point of following
him into fiery death, but does that make his lunacy any more
legitimate?
.

Relevant Pages

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