Re: Why the right is unfair to Cain

On 2011-12-01 22:37:08 +0000, Bart Goddard <goddardbe@xxxxxxxxxxxx> said:

The third is "graduality". Two things have happened to the student. First he realizes that some opinions are much more valuable than others. Second, he's developed a good sense of which opinions are valuable and which would have been better left unexpressed.

I say this, because the whole IPU business is squarely a "stage two" bit of nonsense.

Only if you see the argument as promoting the existence of IPU.

But it's not about that. It's about illustrating that some things do not formalize well into the scientific model, and faith is one of them. This is very much like Stage-3 you mention.

One thing the Godders have right is this: you can't use your scientific mind to comprehend God, it doesn't work. It's right to say "God doesn't fit in your physical-universe-laws set" -- that's an important bit of the whole argument.

Where it sort of falls apart (the debate, the "arguing") is when folks entrench in "well, if it's not part of they universe and its laws, then it's not *real*, it *does*not*exist*" or "it *does*exist*, you just don't 'get it'." That's where things fall into 2 teams throwing words at each other and nobody really paying attention, each team smug in the knowledge that they've got the upper hand and the others are a bunch of idiots.

(Presence or absence of actual idiots in any contingent from either side not really helping matters along.)


If it comes to forensic proof, (that is the reports of witnesses and the opnions of wise people) then there is no comparison between the case for Christianity and the case for the IPU. The witnesses for Christianity went to the cross and stake rather than deny what they saw. The writings of the Ante-Nicene fathers drip with compasion, insight and wisdom. The IPU has a bunch of smart-ass sophomores. Find one who is willing to testify that the IPU healed his acne, and is further willing to die by torture rather than admit his miraculous tale is made up. Barring that, he's also willing to give up whatever sort of life he has, and spend it in poverty promoting the message of the IPU.

No comparison.

So, you are suggesting that [a/the] main measure of forensic proof is the presence of [some number of] witnesses who would die by torture rather than recant their story?

As I mentioned earlier, this will yield as "proven" results that I think you would call "poppycock." THAT'S the point I was trying to make about attempts to "prove" the existence of God. You have demonstrated my point of "if you try to modify the rules of evidence/proof to support proof of God's existence, you'll open the door for all sorts of whack ideas."

Wars have certainly been fought over stupider things!

--
Please remove your pants if you want to send me e-mail.
Lots of good cigar info, the ASC Birthday page, FAQs, vendors and more at
<http://www.ManyFriends.com/Cigars/>
A "great" review is one with the name of the cigar before the review text in the body of the post. :)

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Why the right is unfair to Cain
    ... only if one accepts the axioms. ... That's sort of the problem with trying to prove God. ... and a sophmore thinks that all opinions are equally valuable ... because the whole IPU business is squarely ...
    (alt.smokers.cigars)
  • Re: Jesus explains science.
    ... You believe that God exists, ... I'm not really interested in that sort ... have lied to you about Jesus. ... If people you trust believe people they trust who goes back to the first person to experience an IPU, ...
    (alt.smokers.cigars)
  • Re: Honest question about church attitude to gay relationships
    ... really saying is that your not glad that I have opinions that disagree ... people where I'm glad they disagree with me. ... Archbishop of Canterbury believes in God, ... it's generally roles rather than people for whom this sort of thing ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: Why the right is unfair to Cain
    ... because the whole IPU business is squarely a "stage two" ... When someone mentions God, for some people the defense mechanism kicks in. ... the presence of witnesses who would die by torture ... These people who went to their deaths were so convincing in their story, that they convinced other people who also went to *their* deaths without even actually *witnessing the events in question*. ...
    (alt.smokers.cigars)
  • Re: Thanks for the welcome... and white spots on wrapper?
    ... the special property of being "outside of time and space and not bound ... The difference between your unicorn and Tony's God is that Tony's God has/had the courtesy of incarnating Himself, ... The challenge of IPU is to discover a test that either supports the notion that God exists without simultaniously supporting the notion that IPU exists or disproves the IPU without simultaneously disproving God, and does so in an intellctually honest way ... "The usefulness of religion, the fact that it gives life meaning, that it makes people feel good is not an argument for the truth of any religious doctrine. ...
    (alt.smokers.cigars)