Re: Why the right is unfair to Cain
- From: Miss Elaine Eos <misc@*Your-pants*PlayNaked.com>
- Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 14:57:38 -0800
On 2011-12-01 22:37:08 +0000, Bart Goddard <goddardbe@xxxxxxxxxxxx> said:
The third is "graduality". Two things have happened to the student. First he realizes that some opinions are much more valuable than others. Second, he's developed a good sense of which opinions are valuable and which would have been better left unexpressed.
I say this, because the whole IPU business is squarely a "stage two" bit of nonsense.
Only if you see the argument as promoting the existence of IPU.
But it's not about that. It's about illustrating that some things do not formalize well into the scientific model, and faith is one of them. This is very much like Stage-3 you mention.
One thing the Godders have right is this: you can't use your scientific mind to comprehend God, it doesn't work. It's right to say "God doesn't fit in your physical-universe-laws set" -- that's an important bit of the whole argument.
Where it sort of falls apart (the debate, the "arguing") is when folks entrench in "well, if it's not part of they universe and its laws, then it's not *real*, it *does*not*exist*" or "it *does*exist*, you just don't 'get it'." That's where things fall into 2 teams throwing words at each other and nobody really paying attention, each team smug in the knowledge that they've got the upper hand and the others are a bunch of idiots.
(Presence or absence of actual idiots in any contingent from either side not really helping matters along.)
If it comes to forensic proof, (that is the reports of witnesses and the opnions of wise people) then there is no comparison between the case for Christianity and the case for the IPU. The witnesses for Christianity went to the cross and stake rather than deny what they saw. The writings of the Ante-Nicene fathers drip with compasion, insight and wisdom. The IPU has a bunch of smart-ass sophomores. Find one who is willing to testify that the IPU healed his acne, and is further willing to die by torture rather than admit his miraculous tale is made up. Barring that, he's also willing to give up whatever sort of life he has, and spend it in poverty promoting the message of the IPU.
So, you are suggesting that [a/the] main measure of forensic proof is the presence of [some number of] witnesses who would die by torture rather than recant their story?
As I mentioned earlier, this will yield as "proven" results that I think you would call "poppycock." THAT'S the point I was trying to make about attempts to "prove" the existence of God. You have demonstrated my point of "if you try to modify the rules of evidence/proof to support proof of God's existence, you'll open the door for all sorts of whack ideas."
Wars have certainly been fought over stupider things!
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